Targeting Order

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Oberlus
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Re: Targeting Order

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:02 pm I would prefer we had some fighter only weapon with a name
What?
The only "fighter only" weapon we have are fighters (which we can call "fighters"). Or you mean a weapon that only kills fighters? (we have Flak and Interceptors).

wobbly
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Re: Targeting Order

#17 Post by wobbly »

If you believe the stringtables we actually have:

SHP_RECON_FIGHT
Reconnaissance Fighter

and

SHP_BIOINTERCEPTOR
Biointerceptors

Though neither of those seem to exist...

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Re: Targeting Order

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:02 pm After writing this, I believe that what you meant there would be no reference to laser, plasma, or death ray, Fighters would just be upgraded and have more power.
main point is:

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Mass Driver ship part is called Mass Driver 2 (3, and 4). The part unlocking tech you get from the start (Aggression, gives other starting stuff).

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Laser Weapon ship part is called Laser 2 (3, and 4). The part unlocking tech is Laser Weapons.

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Plasma Cannons ship part is called Plasma Cannon 2 (3, and 4). The unlocking tech is Plasma Cannons.

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Death Ray ship part is called Death Ray 2 (3, and 4). The unlocking tech is Death Rays

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Arc Disruptor ship part is called Arc Disruptor 2 (and 3). The part unlocking tech is Arc Disruptors

the tech that upgrades e.g. the Fighter Hangar part (i.e. the fighter damage) and Launch Bay part (i.e. launch capacity) should be called Fighters and Launch Bays 2 ( 3, and 4). The part unlocking tech is Fighters and Launch Bays
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Re: Targeting Order

#19 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:46 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:02 pm I would prefer we had some fighter only weapon with a name
What?
The only "fighter only" weapon we have are fighters (which we can call "fighters"). Or you mean a weapon that only kills fighters? (we have Flak and Interceptors).
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:17 pm the tech that upgrades e.g. the Mass Driver ship part is called Mass Driver 2 (3, and 4). The part unlocking tech you get from the start (Aggression, gives other starting stuff).
Etc
I do understand what you are trying to acheive Ophiuchus and agree with the principle +1, but feel that it would create just as much confusion.

What I am trying to say is a "Fighter", as most people would see it, is a platform for carrying weapons, not a weapon in itself, unless we have some type of Kamikaze mode.

To stop any confusion, why not have a weapon exclusively carried by Fighters. I am leaning towards Gamma Rays - Interceptors and Striker Fighters carry Gamma Ray Cannons/Guns, and Bombers and Heavy Bombers carry Gamma Ray Bombs. Keep in mind this is just word/text changes in the Pedia and Research screen.

Therefore in the tech tree we get this (Edited to fix numbering)

Fighters, Launch Bays, and Gamma Rays --> Fighter Gamma Rays 2 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 3 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 4

Means -
a) No confusion on what Laser, Plasma, and Death Ray upgrades mena to fighters
b) No confusion on what Fighter 2, 3, and 4 mean, or Fighters and Launch Bays 2, 3, and 4 mean.

I hope that makes more sense.

wobbly wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:56 pm If you believe the stringtables we actually have:

SHP_RECON_FIGHT
Reconnaissance Fighter

and

SHP_BIOINTERCEPTOR
Biointerceptors

Though neither of those seem to exist...
Which also means having a weapon exclusively for Interceptors, Striker Fighters, Bombers, and Heavy Bombers makes even more sense. If other fighters are ever introduced, then they dont have to have the same weapon.
Last edited by Daybreak on Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Oberlus
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Re: Targeting Order

#20 Post by Oberlus »

I prefer what Ophiuchus said, by far.

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Re: Targeting Order

#21 Post by Daybreak »

I am interested to know what is your reasoning behind that preference?

To me, if a newbie comes along and sees this

Either -
Fighters and Launch Bays, Fighters 2, Fighters 3, and Fighters 4
Or
Fighters and Launch Bays, Fighters and Launch Bays 2, Fighters and Launch Bays 3, and Fighters and Launch Bays 4

I feel there will be confusion, as a fighter is not a weapon.

Think of it like this - a game is like a story you are playing, if a fighter is upgraded, then you include an explanation on how.

The real problem is, is how you see a fighter.
I see it as a plaform for weapons
You see it as a weapon
How will the rest of the world see it?

and as I said before having a weapon allows the entry of different fighters with different weapons in the future if you want

At the end of the day I like the proposal, whatever way it is done, and gets rid of the need for this explanation and confusion -
Fighter technology is separate and does not relate to direct weapon upgrades. For example researching laser 2, will not increase the firepower of your laser fighters, and it is possible to have researched Plasma Fighters but have only researched Laser weapons for your ships.
So let it be discussed.

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Oberlus
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Re: Targeting Order

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:46 pm Fighters, Launch Bays, and Gamma Rays --> Fighter Gamma Rays 2 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 3 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 4
This is simpler and has no confusion at all:
Fighters --> Fighters 2 --> Fighters 3 --> Fighters 4

BTW, I would remove the "and Launch Bays" from the first tech name.

"Fighters are weapon platforms"
Fine. And they get their weapons upgraded when you research the next fighter tech.

"Let's give figthers their own weapons..."
They have their own weapons. I call them fighter weapons. Heavy bombers have their big boom thing (capable of hitting planets), Bombers have their not so big booms, Strikers have big pew pew, and interceptors have small pew pew.

"... to avoid confusion"
If we had more than a weapon choice for each fighter type (say you can mount your Gamma Ray or a machine gun, each with different characteristics), then it would make sense to give them distinctive names. However, the different types of weapons correspond to the different types of fighters and there is no need to give it a different name. I can't see any confusion, and no one else saw any confusion like the one you are commenting for the years since fighters were introduced. But if we gave a name to the non-part fighter weapon, wouldn't some players be confused by not finding the weapon part? And wouldn't it be confusing that bombers are using gamma rays? BTW, death rays are probably gamma rays.

Fighters X is a good name.
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:25 pm and as I said before having a weapon allows the entry of different fighters with different weapons in the future if you want
Not in the vanilla game, please. Current level of complexity is already good. You can design ships and you have 4 types of fighters to play with.

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Re: Targeting Order

#23 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pm This is simpler and has no confusion at all:
Fighters --> Fighters 2 --> Fighters 3 --> Fighters 4
Doesnt it? What does it mean?
Look at it as if you dont know the answer. Which one of the following is correct if you don't know?
Upgrade to how many fighters you may have?
Upgrade to Firepower?

If we don't want to add to the story and name a weapon, thats fine, but at least come up with a more descriptive way to describe what is happening, like

Fighters and Launch Bays --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 2 --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 3 --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 4

Yes I understand that we dont have the extra text for weapons, but then we know they are weapons by their name.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:25 pm and as I said before having a weapon allows the entry of different fighters with different weapons in the future if you want
Not in the vanilla game, please. Current level of complexity is already good. You can design ships and you have 4 types of fighters to play with.
Well, I guarantee the game will get more complicated as time goes on.

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Re: Targeting Order

#24 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:56 am
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pm This is simpler and has no confusion at all:
Fighters --> Fighters 2 --> Fighters 3 --> Fighters 4
Doesnt it? What does it mean?
Look at it as if you dont know the answer. Which one of the following is correct if you don't know?
Upgrade to how many fighters you may have?
Upgrade to Firepower?
If I don't know...
What are fighters in this game? Guys with a band in the head that yell "aduken"? Something to conquer planets?
If I don't know the answer, I'll check the Pedia.

In this case, it upgrades numbers of interceptors, damage of the other type of fighters.

Fighters and Launch Bays --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 2 --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 3 --> Fighter Weapon upgrade 4
Is that so much clear to you? Not to me, as per above. Why would I get extra interceptors if I am just upgrading their weapons.

If you get anyone willing to change game as you say, I won't have any problem with it. Meanwhile, I think this "problem" is only yours.

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Re: Targeting Order

#25 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:46 pm Fighters, Launch Bays, and Gamma Rays --> Fighter Gamma Rays 2 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 3 --> Fighter Gamma Rays 4
This is simpler and has no confusion at all:
Fighters --> Fighters 2 --> Fighters 3 --> Fighters 4

BTW, I would remove the "and Launch Bays" from the first tech name.
I am not opposed to dropping it, but the "and Launch Bays" is there to remind the player that it increases the launch capacity for interceptors.

If we took something referencing damage like "Fighter Gamma Rays 2" it for sure had to include the launch bays; so rather "Gamma Rays and Launch Bays 2".

Also if one wants, one could knock yourself out writing some fluff for the techs. In PR I left the fluff (laser,plasma,dr) to give an impression of comparable power level to the direct weapon line.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pmBTW, death rays are probably gamma rays.
Nooooo. That are old scool sci fi trope death raaaayz made with a lot handwavium.
Daybreak wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:25 pm and as I said before having a weapon allows the entry of different fighters with different weapons in the future if you want
if we introduce fighters with different weapons and its own upgrade tech in future.. we change the names.. in the future.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:25 pm Current level of complexity is already good. You can design ships and you have 4 types of fighters to play with.
agree to complexity is well fitting / happy with the current complexity level

anyway, iiiif we added another type of fighter, i have a bunch of ideas (core part with loads of zero-damage fighters "nanite swarm orbiting the fleet, destroying the attack, not the attacker", perfect drone system which does not overshoot if no other weapon systems are used (enhance by adding a targeting computer to determine targets). aand we definitly should add an 'Adoukken' fighter, also i am not sure what that does besides missing an 'h'. :lol:
maybe the fighters on a 'Amatto' hull guard monster.
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Re: Targeting Order

#26 Post by Vezzra »

wobbly wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:56 pm If you believe the stringtables we actually have:

SHP_RECON_FIGHT
Reconnaissance Fighter

and

SHP_BIOINTERCEPTOR
Biointerceptors

Though neither of those seem to exist...
Derelict entries from a very, very long time ago. IIRC those have been already derelict when I joined the project in 2011...

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Re: Targeting Order

#27 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:56 am Turn Order
Troops Invade. Ships move. Combat Occurs. Meters grow.

Meters grow after movement and combat phases. If my ships are 1 turn away it's too late. They'll hit before defense kicks in. The 1 exception is the defense regeneration tech which gives a small regen even after combat.
Wobbly can we add the above, as well, to this entry n the Pedia. Very relevant

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Re: Targeting Order

#28 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:56 am Turn Order
Troops Invade. Ships move. Combat Occurs. Meters grow.

Meters grow after movement and combat phases. If enemy ships are 1 turn away from a planet, they w'll hit the planet before an new defense kicks in. The only exception is the defense regeneration tech which gives a small regenenration even after combat.
Wobbly can we add the above, as well, to this entry n the Pedia. Very relevant

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Re: Targeting Order

#29 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:00 pm
wobbly wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:56 am Turn Order
Troops Invade. Ships move. Combat Occurs. Meters grow.

Meters grow after movement and combat phases. If enemy ships are 1 turn away from a planet, they w'll hit the planet before an new defense kicks in. The only exception is the defense regeneration tech which gives a small regenenration even after combat.
Wobbly can we add the above, as well, to this entry n the Pedia. Very relevant
I'll add it somewhere in pedia. There's actually a better list when you hover over the end turn button, its just very easy to miss that it's actually there.

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