Shield Strength too strong or bug?

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Daybreak
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Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#1 Post by Daybreak »

The pedia says that Robotic Interface
Pedia wrote: Robotic Interface: Shields have a shield strength of roughly 6 shield strength per other Robotic Interface: Shielded ships at the same location, though with diminishing returns at higher numbers. The effect is capped at 20 shield strength, only applies to ships crewed by Robotic Metabolism species and can only be placed in a Hull Line: Robotic ship.
So capped at 20.

However I am seeing an Oberlus fleet with a 69 Shield strength

I could not upload as upload quota has been reached, so
https://i.imgur.com/e4M92bf.png

Now thats more than
Plasma at 54 shield strength; and
Multi-Spectral at 60 shield strength.

That needs fixinging or is it correct?

If correct then thats too strong, and needs amending.

wobbly
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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#2 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:58 pm So capped at 20.
I'd say that's in old numbers back when we had 3 round combat and the cap is actually 20 x6 = 120

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#3 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:54 am
Daybreak wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:58 pm So capped at 20.
I'd say that's in old numbers back when we had 3 round combat and the cap is actually 20 x6 = 120
I dont think so, as in old numbers that would have been higher than Blackshield at 15 (Now 90).

With deflector field now at 30 ((Previously 5)
Plasma at 54 shield strength(Previously 9); and
Multi-Spectral at 60 shield strength (Previously 10).

So how can Robotic Interface be so high.
A cap of 20 strength makes sense based on those shield strengths above, which have a much higher tech research cost.

Strength of 69 does not make any sense and way overpowered.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#4 Post by Oberlus »

So you saw my stack of robos in 20th MP :twisted:
3bf82ce08bfb666701623ef030b68f5c--conan-the-barbarian-the-barbarians.jpg
3bf82ce08bfb666701623ef030b68f5c--conan-the-barbarian-the-barbarians.jpg (46.66 KiB) Viewed 1549 times
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:46 am So how can Robotic Interface be so high.
Because they were scripted like that.

It's not that strong if you consider how many ships you need in the same system to reach the maximum: 20^2/7 = 58 ships with RIS.
To do that you need to invest a lot of PP into robo hulls (and if you are lucky, maybe some self-gravs later)
If the enemies see you are going RIS and then they amass fighters, you are tot.
One can go organic or asteroid or even robo carriers and later switch to Titans with black shields, and as long as you keep killing the RIS ships, the enemy will seldom see a RIS strength of 60 while your titans will start at 90. And those titans can go in fleets or split to harrass and they don't lose the shield, while splitting the RIS fleet is a total waste of PPs, so going RIS restricts a lot what your tatics.

If I was the one going fighters and you the one going RIS in this game, you could be posting that RIS are quite inefficient. At least, many players in the past commented that RIS are unplayable (except against AIs, maybe), and no one ever thought RIS was OP.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#5 Post by Oberlus »

Plus you can only do that with robotic species (none are great pilots).

For context:

Regular shields costs are defense grid 20 PP (18 strength), deflector 35 PP (30), plasma 60 PP (54), and black 120 PP (90).

RIS costs 40.
You need 6 RIS ships to reach 30 shield strength, and at that level it's more expensive than just using deflectors (that cost 5 less PP).
You start milking the RIS bonus around 10 ships. With 12 RIS ships you reach 54, and that begins to be nice. To reach black shield level you need 33 ships.
Building fleets that big take a lot of time and gives enemies a lot of time to react. At least when they scout.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#6 Post by Daybreak »

I disagree - for comparison it has to be apples for apples - you cant compare it against fighters - it is not fair comparison. You must compare it against robotic ships with the other shields, who also have the same disadvantages against fighters
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:51 am For context:

Regular shields costs are defense grid 20 PP (18 strength), deflector 35 PP (30), plasma 60 PP (54), and black 120 PP (90).

RIS costs 40.
You need 6 RIS ships to reach 30 shield strength, and at that level it's more expensive than just using deflectors (that cost 5 less PP).
You start milking the RIS bonus around 10 ships. With 12 RIS ships you reach 54, and that begins to be nice. To reach black shield level you need 33 ships.
Building fleets that big take a lot of time and gives enemies a lot of time to react. At least when they scout.

in comparing Parts: Diamond Armor Plating, Flak Cannon, Plasma Cannons x2 - and shields as below


1) A fleet of 6 Robotic ships is very small and you cant do much anyway, except the basics - you are not going to defeat any empire with that. However saying that There is a 16 pp cost in difference to building Robotic ship with RIS (148pp) compared to Robotic ship with defense grid (132pp) or 96pp more for 6 ships with RIS and a shield strength of 30 vs Defense grid of 18 - An extra cost of 96pp is not a very high price to pay.

and it gets worse as it is compounding, as per-

2) There is only a 4pp cost in difference to building Robotic ship with RIS (148pp) compared to Robotic ship with deflector shield (144pp) and at 12 ships, the cost is only 48PP more for shield strength of 54 vs shield strength of 30 - that is overpowered for the cost.

as as it is compounding, it gets worse -
at Plasma shields the Robotic ships are more expensive than ones with RIS, but with worse shields

if that is not overpowered, then what is?

and that is apples for apples.

But it is not even the full story

Robotic Hulls and RIS are unlocked for a GRAND TOTAL of 44RP

Defence Grid is unlocked for a total of 154RP
and Deflector shields for a further 270RP, so a total of 424rp
and Plasma for a further 1.4K RP, so a total of 1.82K

which all take a long time to get in this game, while Robotic with RIS can be pumped out a lot quicker, before any Robotic ships with higher shields, can even get to be built.

So I stand by my statement

Robotic Interface is overpowed for its total cost in pp and rp.

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:51 am Plus you can only do that with robotic species (none are great pilots).
No but Etty are good pilots, and it is a starting species

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:47 am I disagree - for comparison it has to be apples for apples - you cant compare it against fighters
I'm not comparing them to fighters, I'm telling RIS (same as other shields) have a hard counter, carriers, that make shields not OP no matter what.

Then I'm comparing RIS to the regular shields, and stating that each have their pros and cons, that make RIS not OP.


You must compare it against robotic ships with the other shields
OK

1 Robotic hull with defense grid shield, two zortrium and two laser 4. Shield strength 18, structure 376, two shots of 66 damage. Cost 132 PP.
vs
1 Robotic hull with RIS, two zortrium and two laser 4. Shield strength 0, structure 376, two shots of 66 damage. Cost 147 PP.
Wins the one with defense grid.

5 Robotic hull with defense grid shield, two zortrium and two laser 4. Shield strength 18, structure 376x5, 10 shots of 66 damage. Cost 660 PP.
vs
5 Robotic hull with RIS, two zortrium and two laser 4. Shield strength 24, structure 376x5, 10 shots of 66 damage. Cost 735 PP.
Win the RIS hulls, barely, but the other empire is playing with 75 less PP.

Same designs, 10 defense grid vs 10 RIS, win the RIS hulls with clear advantage. But then, why are you building so many robos with defense grid knowing there is an empire going RIS?

10 Robotic hull with RIS, two zortrium, one laser 4 and one flak. Shield strength 24, structure 376x10, 10 shots of 66 damage. Cost 1470 PP.
vs
13 Robotic hulls with bomber, two zortrium, one laser 4 and one launch bay. Shield strength 24, structure 376x13, two shots of 66 damage. Cost 1456 PP.
Win the hulls with bombers. Obviously.


Maybe RIS is OP compared to the other shields early game, if the empire going RIS has some production advantage and the enemies don't build fighters for some weird reason. But late game there are not op at all. You can't have fleets of Titans with significative numbers for the RIS bonus, and robo hulls are too limited for end game.
at Plasma shields the Robotic ships are more expensive than ones with RIS, but with worse shields
Then build ships with RIS (if you have robotic). But keep in mind that you first need to build the six ships and keep them together. You can't conquer an empire with 6 ships spread, but you can cripple supply with that.
Robotic Hulls and RIS are unlocked for a GRAND TOTAL of 44RP
If you unlock them later than that, delaying when you can start building them, they become less interesting.
If you go crazy about building robos with RIS from start, when are you planning to build new colonies or invade natives? You then drag behind in PP and RP and other empires crush you.
Robo hull is the best hull for RIS yet it is quite expensive on itself and short on slots. Other going with organics with a balanced build (fighters and guns) wins hands down.
Defence Grid is unlocked for a total of 154RP
and Deflector shields for a further 270RP
and Plasma for a further 1.4KRP
Shields that can be mounted on every species and every hull line. RIS can only be on robotic hull with robotic species. It's quite restrictive.
Robotic Interface is overpowed for its total cost
... when pitched against robo hulls with shields.

But not when pitched against robo hulls with fighters, titan hulls with black shields, or any other hull with fighters. So pretty much not OP or UP in most game situations.

Anyways, what would you propose for RIS? Just increase their cost? Then I would never use them (unless wanting to lose). Same I never use the regular shields in robo hulls because that internal slot is too valuable for a shield.
Only if an enemy is abusing Arc Disruptors I would go deflector shield on small hulls, or plasma in self-gravs. And only if I am Etty would I build robo hulls with Etty.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#8 Post by Oberlus »

My perceptions, in brief:

1. The best possible early/mid shield build (Etty with robo hulls and RIS) is too vulnerable to fighter builds.
Using two armor parts (the more total structure of the shielded ship, the more you get from the investment in the shields), one gun and one flak, carriers are superior. And the cost of the flak makes the build not that great against robo hulls with cheaper shields that don't include the flak (one extra armor or one extra gun).

2. Early cheap shields are only really good against MD and Arc Disruptor, and too vulnerable to fighters.

3. RIS strategy is not OP unless enemies let the empire alone to pile up ships.


Lets make regular shields cheaper?

Defense grid 15
Deflector 25
Plasma 40 (same as RIS)
Black 90

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#9 Post by Daybreak »

We can talk about countering a robotic ship with RIS, but Big picture- It i a timing issue

Because everything else takes a long time and a lot of RP and PP to develop, and remember you have to research many other things early in the game at the same time.

Just to get to a Symbiotic Hull with laser fighters takes 158.2RP, and you still have to build an Orbital Incubator and a Cellular Growth Chamber for 60.8 PP which takes AT LEAST 16 turns if you PP is high
and that does not include all the other tech you may be researching (even if it just to get your RP higher) at the same time!

Then you still have to build enough of them.

You can have 10-12 Robotic Ships with RIS very quickly overall which allows powerful shields very early in the game.

AND taking into account what the Pedia says, was never intended. The cap of 20 in the Pedia makes sense, for such a very early ship/shield combination. Somehow that cap has been lost.

I don't think making other shields cheaper or making RIS more expensive is the answer.

I think putting the cap of 20 back in makes more sense, and fits with early game mechanics, timing and cost, vs game mechanics, timing and cost for the next shield Defence Grid of 18 strength, OR fighters to counter it.

As a side note: I would like other species, to be able to use RIS, however it is my thoughts on it, so it does not matter if we don't.

I think this is what should happen

Cap RIS at 20 for Robotic species
Cap RIS at 10 or 13 for non robotic species (I feel that is fairer, but should not stop the cap of 20 for robotic speices being put back in)

at the end of the day, every small ship becomes obsolete, as the game progresses, so yes robotic ships with RIS can be countered, but really early in the game, they ARE OP as they are now.
You did not build 20 of them with the orgasmic shield strength of 69 (pun intended :) ) because they are not op.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 pm putting the cap of 20 back in makes more sense
The cap hasn't been changed, only the factor. When it was 20, Black Shield was 15.

I'll do some playtesting to have the right numbers, but I don't think I'll find that symb carriers can't win the Etty-Robo-RIS when there are 10-12 RIS in game.
I would like other species, to be able to use RIS, however it is my thoughts on it, so it does not matter if we don't.

The whole idea of the RIS was to be something special for robotic species. I wasn't here when that was decided, but I wouldn't change it.
Cap RIS at 20 for Robotic species
You mean cap RIS at 20 with factor included, while defense grid is 18 and deflector 30?
That would mean RIS is absolute crap.
You did not build 20 of them with the orgasmic shield strength of 69 (pun intended :) ) because they are not op.
Hahaha. Following that argument, everybody built what they built because it's OP.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#11 Post by Daybreak »

you discounted/ignored the whole timing problem
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 pm putting the cap of 20 back in makes more sense
The cap hasn't been changed, only the factor. When it was 20, Black Shield was 15.
I fired up vers 4.9 and Pedia said
Pedia wrote: Robotic Interface: Shields have a shield strength of roughly 1 shield strength per other Robotic Interface: Shielded ships at the same location, though with diminishing returns at higher numbers. The effect is capped at 20 shield strength, only applies to ships crewed by Robotic Metabolism species and can only be placed in a Hull Line: Robotic ship.
so yes you are right it should say 120, but I that is too strong, and should be changed, and should havbe been changed in other versions.

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 pm I'll do some playtesting to have the right numbers, but I don't think I'll find that symb carriers can't win the Etty-Robo-RIS when there are 10-12 RIS in game.
Test how much damage can you do before you build those Symb's, and also make sure you add all the other research you also need to do on other tech. It is a timing issue, of how long it takes. Keep building RIS ships and see when Sym can finally beat them. It will take a long time, and by that time we will have moved on to larger ships.

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 pm Cap RIS at 20 for Robotic species
You mean cap RIS at 20 with factor included, while defense grid is 18 and deflector 30?
That would mean RIS is absolute crap.
Why would they be crap? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

They would be slightly better than Robotic with defence grid, which also equates to their cost.
But even better, they can be built way earlier than anything with a defence grid.

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 pm
You did not build 20 of them with the orgasmic shield strength of 69 (pun intended :) ) because they are not op.
Hahaha. Following that argument, everybody built what they built because it's OP.
until they are not and can be beaten by more tech and larger ships.

Again, it is a timing issue.

Anyway your own testing will prove it.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#12 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 pm We can talk about countering a robotic ship with RIS, but Big picture- It i a timing issue

Because everything else takes a long time and a lot of RP and PP to develop, and remember you have to research many other things early in the game at the same time.

Just to get to a Symbiotic Hull with laser fighters takes 158.2RP, and you still have to build an Orbital Incubator and a Cellular Growth Chamber for 60.8 PP which takes AT LEAST 16 turns if you PP is high
and that does not include all the other tech you may be researching (even if it just to get your RP higher) at the same time!

Then you still have to build enough of them.

You can have 10-12 Robotic Ships with RIS very quickly overall which allows powerful shields very early in the game.
Angry or not, you should stick to arguments that are realistic. Robotic ships are expensive and so are RIS. You can reach symbiot hulls and laser fighters well and truly before anyone has the production to churn out 12 robotic ships and even the basic fighter (16 RP) will go through any shield and those basic fighters will upgrade to laser and plasma fighters later in the game while a MD will stay a MD.

I'm not convinced they're OP. Robot Hulls only have 1 internal. Having a shield means not using carriers and carriers are definitely OP.

The pedia entry being wrong is another issue. There were some other things in the pedia I've been wanting to fix, I'll put a fix in for that too.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#13 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:13 am
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 pm
You did not build 20 of them with the orgasmic shield strength of 69 (pun intended :) ) because they are not op.
Hahaha. Following that argument, everybody built what they built because it's OP.
until they are not and can be beaten by more tech and larger ships.

Again, it is a timing issue.

Anyway your own testing will prove it.
Someone being reamed, where they were unclear of the mechanic doesn't prove much, other then the mechanic being poorly explained.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#14 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:13 am you discounted/ignored the whole timing problem
No, I said I'll do my own playtesting to check out the numbers (numbers include turns, not only PPs and RPs). You could do the same and get a surprise.

Edit:


Etty, using same version and settings than MP20, seed for random numbers "69".

Turn 1:
Policies: Centralization and Propaganda.
Research tree: Physical Brain, Planetary Eco, Domesticated Megafauna, Organic Hull, Contrived Symbiosis, Asymptotic Materials, Architectural Psy, Fighters and Launch bays, Zortrium and Subterranean Hab.
Build queue: scout, scout, military command center
Turn 3: (Automated History Analyzer, AHA, unlocked)
Add AHA before military command center, and one colony ship to tail of build queue.
Turn 4:
Deadopt propaganda and adopt Liberty.

AHA finished in turn 8.
Architectural Psy (extra social policy slot) finished on turn 10.
Organic Hull and Orbital Incubator unlocked on turn 11. Fighters on turn 12, zortrium 13.
Organic Incubator and Contrived Symbiosis finished on turn 19.
Can start building a medium hull carrier from turn 12 (a bit sooner is possible).
At turn 19 start building symbiotic with fuel, bomber, zortrium and launch bay.
Laser fighters finished on turn 22.
At turn 23 have one bomber and one interceptor symb carriers.
Every 4 turns get another couple.


Now for Etty going robo hulls, ,same settings, same seed:

Turn 1:
Policies: Centralization and Propaganda.
Research tree: Physical Brain, Robotic Production, Military Robotic, Asymptotic Materials, Architectural Psy, Laser and Zortrium, Planetary Eco and Subterranean Hab.
Same is similar without the incubator.
Turn 8 you can start building one robo RIS with 2 armor, 1 MD and 1 flak. Costs 80+ PP. Will be finished in seven turns (turn 15) at same time than laser and zortrium. Architectural Psy finished in turn 12.
Turn 15 you start building robo laser RIS. It needs 8 turns per ship. Add techs laser 2, 3, 4 at some point.
Turn 23 you have two robo RIS with shield = 33% of a defense grid but that costed you +20 PP per ship, or that could be robo carriers, also cheaper.


From turn 24 onwards everything depends on too many factors. In these playtests I didn't scout much and didn't use the colony ship, and I didn't change planet focus. However, if the PP output grows the same for both Etty empires, the one going symbiotic carriers has more firepower and structure by turn 30 or 40, when there are 4 robo RIS and 8 symbiotic carriers. And from there on it can only get worse for the RIS empire.


Now, nerf RIS and tell me why the hell would anyone go that route?


I think you are wrong, Daybreak, and you just need some more experience to see it differently.

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Re: Shield Strength too strong or bug?

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

+1 to robotic shields not being overpowered

1) they are only a problem if one gets caught unawares - an easy counter exists

2) even if one is committed to direct weapons one can out-tech those or go for an early preemptive attack to reap the benefits of attrition

3) the robotic shields have serious drawbacks (ion storm, prone to attrition/division of fleet)

(havent used the shields in years, so I cant rule out balance might have changed, but dont think so; i think shield vs damage balance was preserved when moving from 3 bouts to 4)
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