Liberty OP?

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Liberty OP?

#1 Post by Grummel7 »

Let's start a new thread for this question...
Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:55 am However I have the feeling Liberty is OP right now (so OP as to render species that dislike it too hard to play, or to make players not consider the Conformance policy route).
I have that feeling as well, in fact I think it explains to a certain degree why the AI is suddenly so strong.

It used to give +2, now its (stability - 5) / 5, i.e. its +2 at stability 15, but it can give more than 2. A tiny planet with Exobots can produce considerable research. It may even produce more research with protection focus (+15 = +3 research) than with research focus. That's absurd.

Growth with stability should possible be restricted or at least not grow linearly. Races with good stability have enough advantages already.
And it should definitely depend on the population size. Fluff-wise it does make sense that free flowing ideas produce research, but then it should also depend on how many minds exchange these ideas.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Tying it to population and to stability baseline: (stability-baseline-5)/100*population
15 stability, baseline=0, +0.1*pop. +0.2 or 0.25*pop for capital would be easy to get, so it's still a big boost. But not that good for weird stuff like happy exobots.

And I think it should be research focused. It's an early policy, easy to adopt and to milk, shouldn't be the most powerful non-focused research bonus. Keeping it non-focused and nerfing the bonus a lot doesn't seem fun, I like that policies are something to play with to get the most. Also, making it research focused solves the weirdness of extra research from planets set to protection.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1874
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#3 Post by wobbly »

Another option is to use pop as a straight limit. e.g. the minimum of pop, stability - 5

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Liberty OP?

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:19 am Another option is to use pop as a straight limit. e.g. the minimum of pop, stability - 5
the other way round is more intuitive for me: scale with population and cut off with stability

but gamewise i also like a pop cutoff for such kind of bonus.

side note; if those numbers (bonus/stability/population) are in the same ballpark, one can simplify formulas: e.g. if research output gets scaled up (e.g. by factor 5), also a flat bonus (e.g. 10) with a (combined?) pop/stability cutoff would be ok.
Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 pm And I think it should be research focused. It's an early policy, easy to adopt and to milk, shouldn't be the most powerful non-focused research bonus. Keeping it non-focused and nerfing the bonus a lot doesn't seem fun, I like that policies are something to play with to get the most. Also, making it research focused solves the weirdness of extra research from planets set to protection.
+1
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#5 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:34 pm Tying it to population and to stability baseline: (stability-baseline-5)/100*population
15 stability, baseline=0, +0.1*pop. +0.2 or 0.25*pop for capital would be easy to get, so it's still a big boost. But not that good for weird stuff like happy exobots.

And I think it should be research focused. It's an early policy, easy to adopt and to milk, shouldn't be the most powerful non-focused research bonus. Keeping it non-focused and nerfing the bonus a lot doesn't seem fun, I like that policies are something to play with to get the most. Also, making it research focused solves the weirdness of extra research from planets set to protection.
I actually like the unfocused bonus, but I for the game I guess focus restriction makes sense.

Just a quick calculation: your formula generates 4.4 for a Cray starting world, 2.15 for Egassem and even less for Scylior, because Liberty and disliking palace do not go together well. But Scylior are not a bit problem, they research enough. Other planets will provide almost nothing early on, unless you can conquer a big and happy native planet.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:13 am the other way round is more intuitive for me: scale with population and cut off with stability
That's what I would suggest, too. At the moment, the highest stability that gives any bonus apart from liberty, is 20.
How about: max(0, min(stability-5, 15))*pop/100.
So, the maximum is 0.15 per pop (at stability >= 20), but as the empire gets bigger and less stable, algorithmic research, which give 0.1 regardless of stability and does not boost dislikes will become better.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:51 pm I actually like the unfocused bonus, but I for the game I guess focus restriction makes sense.

Just a quick calculation: your formula generates 4.4 for a Cray starting world, 2.15 for Egassem and even less for Scylior, because Liberty and disliking palace do not go together well. But Scylior are not a bit problem, they research enough. Other planets will provide almost nothing early on, unless you can conquer a big and happy native planet.
I'm gathering all SetTargetResearch effects in a spreadsheet to put some order in my thoughts and to make more extensive calculations. It will take me some time, if I can focus. But Liberty needs fixing now. I have other thinks I like to change along with Liberty, but I think that can wait.
Grummel7 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:51 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:13 am the other way round is more intuitive for me: scale with population and cut off with stability
That's what I would suggest, too. At the moment, the highest stability that gives any bonus apart from liberty, is 20.
How about: max(0, min(stability-5, 15))*pop/100.
So, the maximum is 0.15 per pop (at stability >= 20), but as the empire gets bigger and less stable, algorithmic research, which give 0.1 regardless of stability and does not boost dislikes will become better.
In my current SP game, with Etty, turn 160 or so, I have 40 stability in capital, 30~ in other capital species planets, unhappy Ugmors with 10~ everywhere, one native that totally dislikes my empire with 10~ in protection focus, and some other populated planets with stabilities in the range 15-25.
I, by aesthetic principles, dislike hard limits in equations: stability 20 gives 3x the bonus at stability 10, but stability 40 gives exactly the same as stability 20. I'd like that the higher you can get your stability, the more bonus. But that is hard to balance, I think. So let's go with your suggestion. Maybe make it

Code: Select all

max(0, min(stability-5, 20))*pop/100.

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#7 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:20 pm I, by aesthetic principles, dislike hard limits in equations: stability 20 gives 3x the bonus at stability 10, but stability 40 gives exactly the same as stability 20. I'd like that the higher you can get your stability, the more bonus. But that is hard to balance, I think. So let's go with your suggestion. Maybe make it

Code: Select all

max(0, min(stability-5, 20))*pop/100.
That means it grows up to 25 and again species with stability bonuses profit much more than others. I'd prefer capping at 20, but I can live with 25 as well.

Hard limits: Well, all those stability thresholds are hard limits, giving you all or nothing. We could replace all of them by smooth formulas, but I don't know if that it would improve the game.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:50 pm That means it grows up to 25 and again species with stability bonuses profit much more than others. I'd prefer capping at 20, but I can live with 25 as well.
OK, I get your point. +1 to make it 20.

User avatar
Grummel7
Space Dragon
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: Liberty OP?

#9 Post by Grummel7 »

I've created a PR

Post Reply