Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

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Daybreak
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Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#1 Post by Daybreak »

Mu Ursh is pretty much been nerfed out of the game

I have managed to play them, but its hard to achieve. Mu Ursh in protection focus, All other shipbuilding scrapped, and certain polices required, as well as imports.

This creates a gap between Misiorla +3 piloting skill (Quite easy to integrate) and species with +1 piloting skills (Quite easy to integrate). Yes there is Eaxaw, and maybe you can get hold of them.

SO basically if you start with normal piloting skills, there is a good chance you can get a +1 species, but if you get Eaxaw or Misiorla you can get a huge advantage. To me Mu Ursh which can also be found, were a way to mitigate Eaxaw and Misiorla advantages. Now that is gone.

I understand you want to make it harder to use them, but it appears that is has gone too far and some adjustment should be made. Keep in mind they are only +2 piloting skill.

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Oberlus
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#2 Post by Oberlus »

If you have only one shipyard, in the Mu Ursh world, and only one of the advanced shipyards (organic or geo or asteroid, but just one), it isn't that hard to have Mu Ursh.
In your screenshot, instead of -72 stability points from multiple shipyard worlds and shipyard variants with Liberty, just -4 from the Shipyard and Geo with Conformance, or -8 with Liberty.

wobbly
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#3 Post by wobbly »

It is a lot of shipyards. What universe size? I'm worried about how well distance independent likes/dislikes work when the universe starts getting large.

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:17 am It is a lot of shipyards. What universe size? I'm worried about how well distance independent likes/dislikes work when the universe starts getting large.
This clearly does not scale (with having lots of shipyards). But i am not sure it has to.

if one uses Mu Ursh one needs to adapt their playstyle. E.g. skip using many shipyards. Using stargates later on should work well. Or use e.g. terror suppression or similar.

The effect certainly fits the Mu Ursh fluff. On the other hand it may be simply unfun/unbalanced.
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Oberlus
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#5 Post by Oberlus »

Removing Basic Shipyard from Mu Ursh dislikes could be OK, but I'd like to play with them with current version before changing that, to be sure it's needed.

Daybreak
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#6 Post by Daybreak »

Think like this
if you only have 3 ship building facilities in your empire, one for -
Mu Ursh - building titans - has to have basic, orbital drydock,Geo-Integration Facility -24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Mu Ursh - building Solar Hulls - has to have basic, E Cmpressor, Solar containment- - 24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Egasm or Ugmor building troops - basic, and either organic or robotic

You cant have one base with Mur Ursh doing the lot, because each ship building item is -8 stability

it is true you could have 1 only ship building facility in your entire empire
Mu Ursh - building Solar Hulls - has to have basic, E Cmpressor, Solar containment (or Titans for smae effect) - - 24 - and yes you can have Protection focus +15, and have policies and exports (But only if you have them) to get up and cover the other negative 9 stability.
It is possible, but no asteroids, no sepearate troop carriers (unless you went organic route).

Seems to me if it has been overdone.
Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:59 am Removing Basic Shipyard from Mu Ursh dislikes could be OK, but I'd like to play with them with current version before changing that, to be sure it's needed.
I don't think it is enough

I think reducing the dislike for facilities on the planet of each Mu Ursh from -8 to -4 would be better

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Oberlus
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am Think like this
if you only have 3 ship building facilities in your empire, one for -
Mu Ursh - building titans - has to have basic, orbital drydock,Geo-Integration Facility -24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Mu Ursh - building Solar Hulls - has to have basic, E Cmpressor, Solar containment- - 24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Egasm or Ugmor building troops - basic, and either organic or robotic
Build only Titans or only Solars. Or don't use Mu Ursh and use instead one of the +1 pilot species.

Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am You cant have one base with Mur Ursh doing the lot, because each ship building item is -8 stability
... if you have Liberty. -2 from each if you have conformance: shipyard+drydock+geo (total -6), or shipyard+compressor+containment (total -6). -10 for both Solars and Titans.
With Protection (+15), Bureacracy (+5), Conformance (+2), etc. You can have all the shipyards in the same Mu Ursh world and still build ships in there.

One or two organic or basic shipyards building egassem troops won't be a problem (-0.75 or so with Conformance).


If you do want to go Liberty and Mu Ursh, certainly only one kind of ships in the empire, and lots of stuff that Mu Ursh like. But you can also not use Mu Ursh. +2 pilot skill is not "only +2", it's +33% over average pilots for fully upgraded weapons (+66% for lvl 1 weapons). It's huge.


Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am I think reducing the dislike for facilities on the planet of each Mu Ursh from -8 to -4 would be better
It is -4 already. -8 with Liberty, -2 with Conformance.

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#8 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:52 am
Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am Think like this
if you only have 3 ship building facilities in your empire, one for -
Mu Ursh - building titans - has to have basic, orbital drydock,Geo-Integration Facility -24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Mu Ursh - building Solar Hulls - has to have basic, E Cmpressor, Solar containment- - 24 (-8 for each facility) before adding 5 * -1 = -5 for other facilities in the empire. Grand Total -29 stability
Egasm or Ugmor building troops - basic, and either organic or robotic
Build only Titans or only Solars. Or don't use Mu Ursh and use instead one of the +1 pilot species.

Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am You cant have one base with Mur Ursh doing the lot, because each ship building item is -8 stability
... if you have Liberty. -2 from each if you have conformance: shipyard+drydock+geo (total -6), or shipyard+compressor+containment (total -6). -10 for both Solars and Titans.
With Protection (+15), Bureacracy (+5), Conformance (+2), etc. You can have all the shipyards in the same Mu Ursh world and still build ships in there.

One or two organic or basic shipyards building egassem troops won't be a problem (-0.75 or so with Conformance).


If you do want to go Liberty and Mu Ursh, certainly only one kind of ships in the empire, and lots of stuff that Mu Ursh like. But you can also not use Mu Ursh. +2 pilot skill is not "only +2", it's +33% over average pilots for fully upgraded weapons (+66% for lvl 1 weapons). It's huge.


Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:37 am I think reducing the dislike for facilities on the planet of each Mu Ursh from -8 to -4 would be better
It is -4 already. -8 with Liberty, -2 with Conformance.
It is easy to say you can do this or that, but only if you live in some type of vacuum, and ignore all other species you may have

Dropping Liberty can drop half your research. to have Confomance you cant have Artisan Workshops or Diversity. Bureacracy comes with its own problems

So basically if you have the right species that like Bureacracy and confomance then you can have Mu Ursh, but otherwise you can have them, but you will pay a huge cost. But everyone can have Misiora and +1 pilots without too many problems.

Its too one sided.

I think others need to try and play Mu Ursh with different species to see.

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#9 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:03 am It is easy to say you can do this or that, but only if you live in some type of vacuum, and ignore all other species you may have.
That's why I said I need to play this to be sure. I haven't tried all options, and I don't think you have tried all options.
Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:03 am Dropping Liberty can drop half your research.
And can drop only a small percentage. It depends on the stability levels, the species, the population techs and special, and the planets foci.
Plus there are other options to milk RP: Necessity, Terraforming, Distributed Thought Computing.
to have Confomance you cant have Artisan Workshops or Diversity.
But can have Indoctrination and Divine authority.
Bureacracy comes with its own problems
The same that Liberty (and its research bonus) comes with its own problems, as you can see.
So basically if you have the right species that like Bureacracy and confomance then you can have Mu Ursh
I don't think that's true. But I need to play more.
but otherwise you can have them, but you will pay a huge cost.
Nor this.
But everyone can have Misiora and +1 pilots without too many problems.
Misiorla needs luck. A lot I'd say.
+1 pilots are worse than +2 pilots, and playable +2 pilots come with their own problems, so it's OK that the native +2 pilots are troublesome as well.


Talking about the need to try Mu Ursh with different species before saying it's not that hard... Have you tried playing with Conformance and Indoctrination from mid/late game onwards to see if it is so bad? Have you tried Necessity with low stability planets for RP milking?

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#10 Post by Oberlus »

About Liberty and its research bonus:

In my current SP game, trying to mimick my start at 20th MP (+5 stability baseline), I have 17 colonies, 110 RP per turn, 40 of those coming from Liberty.
With stability baseline 0, the bonus from Liberty would be -1 RP per planet (except for the few some that are already under stability 10), so I would have 100 per turn and 30 coming from Liberty. With Bureacracy (+5 stability) I would be getting +17 extra RPs per turn.
Switching to Conformance and Indoctrination later in game will allow me to reach higher stability levels in several colonies (so more bonuses to industry) despite the problems to keep content species with different likes and dislikes.
Terraforming will allow to recover a lot of the RPs that were coming from Liberty (up to +4 RP per planet, research focused), although that needs lots of PP and lots of player actions to move population around.

In general, late game you can start neglecting RP output if you already got all the urgent stuff to fight your enemies.

However I have the feeling Liberty is OP right now (so OP as to render species that dislike it too hard to play, or to make players not consider the Conformance policy route).

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#11 Post by Daybreak »

Dropping Liberty, diversity, and Atisan- dropped my research from 321 to 129 - ok late in game not such a big deal
Dropped my PP about 300K and still dropping

Adding Conformance

Adding Centralization, so I can add Bureaucracy- but influence is now going negative by 400pts a turn

Added Bureaucracy

PP increased again to just under what it was previously, and Mu Ursh are now usable

However, if I went negative influence, then I would suffer other problems

Now something I did not know, and the only thing that saved my influence from being negative, was I could now remove Centralization, which saved my influence. Not sure if that is supposed to happen, as Centralization is supposed to be a prerequisite of Bureaucracy. Is that correct?


At the end of the day this is something you can only do late in the game when research is not required as much. Which makes it still a problem

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:45 pm Now something I did not know, and the only thing that saved my influence from being negative, was I could now remove Centralization, which saved my influence. Not sure if that is supposed to happen, as Centralization is supposed to be a prerequisite of Bureaucracy. Is that correct?
Yes. It's counterintuitive to me too. I'd like to remove that prerreq for some other reasons.

And yes, Centralization is to be removed always after used for whatever policy you needed first. It cripples IP.

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#13 Post by drkosy »

+1 pilots are worse than +2 pilots, and playable +2 pilots come with their own problems, so it's OK that the native +2 pilots are troublesome as well.
Actually they are so troublesome I just didn't conquer their worlds. The difference to +1 pilots (especially etty) are to low to cripple your whole empire by choosing some policies just to increase the happiness of 1 species.

In my second game I changed Mu Ursh that they are happy with the organic line (but just that one) and didn't feel they are overpowered now. That means you could have other shipyards for organic outpost ships to colonize the edge of the galaxy. It's massive PP-Cost to build transformers all over the galaxy (stargates could cause stability problems for some races) so I think shipyard and incubator should be possible without having massive issues to stability somewhere.
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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#14 Post by Daybreak »

agree

Its not proportional to having their extra +1 advantage - I did the same and now just ignore them

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Re: Mu Ursh - now too hard to play

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:51 pm
Daybreak wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:45 pm Now something I did not know, and the only thing that saved my influence from being negative, was I could now remove Centralization, which saved my influence. Not sure if that is supposed to happen, as Centralization is supposed to be a prerequisite of Bureaucracy. Is that correct?
Yes. It's counterintuitive to me too. I'd like to remove that prerreq for some other reasons.

And yes, Centralization is to be removed always after used for whatever policy you needed first. It cripples IP.
how about: remove the prereq and double bureaucracy adoption cost in case centralization is not adopted (so centralization+bureaucracy costs the same as bureaucracy without centralization)? that would maintain a strong synergy between the two policies and remove the adopt/deadopt game.
especially a centralized empire would get the cheaper cost every time bureaucracy gets readopted in order to reset the timer.
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