Feedback on stability and influence

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BlueAward
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#31 Post by BlueAward »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:16 pm
Daybreak wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:34 pm The pedia needs updating then.
It is not?
Ophiuchus so I've just played a bit of 2022-10-17.7060115 and Border Checkpoints did not lower stealth of native species planets that were definitely in my supply. I've learned about the natives from derelict scouts, so I knew they're there, but could only get them after getting enough detection strength upgrade rather than counting on lowering the planet stealth strength via border checkpoints, despite of what it says on the tin

Also, the pedia says about decreasing supply PLC_CHECKPOINT_MAX_SUPPLY_FLAT but I guess it does nothing of such sort, and that constant is not resolved to an actual number either

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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#32 Post by Oberlus »

Currently, Border Checkpoints only lowers stealth of enemy ships.
It is not intended to detect hidden planets.
But I would not mind making it also for planets.

BlueAward
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#33 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:15 am Currently, Border Checkpoints only lowers stealth of enemy ships.
It is not intended to detect hidden planets.
But I would not mind making it also for planets.
Ah ok, pedia does need an update then, because it does talk about planets (and reducing supply with nonresolved name)

wobbly
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#34 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:15 am Currently, Border Checkpoints only lowers stealth of enemy ships.
It is not intended to detect hidden planets.
But I would not mind making it also for planets.
I'm fine with this. There was a version proposed with a smaller stealth penalty to planets. Fluff-wise for me Border Checkpoints includes patrols, informants etc.

gendalf
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#35 Post by gendalf »

One way to improve influence pedia UI readability is to make mentions of species (and things) that are present in the empire highlighted with different than default color.
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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#36 Post by Oberlus »

Great idea, gendalf.

Would you open a feature request in github?

gendalf
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#37 Post by gendalf »

- Is "Indoctrination" just -1 influence and +10 stab(over time) everywhere?
The description text makes it sound like it's conditional, but it seems to be not.
• Increases Target Stability on planets over time. The bonus grows by 0.25 per turn, up to a maximum of 10.0. Conquered planets start with zero, settled planets get the current maximum.
• Decreases Target Influence by 1.00, on planets that receive that boost to Target Stability.
• Increases Target Influence of the capital or planets with a Imperial Regional Administration that have Influence focus by 5.00.
- Also maybe there shouldn't be an influence modifier for each building? Like it shouldn't matter if you have 1 or 5 asteroid processors or scanning facilities, the global modifier for the species should be the same.
- Environmentalism is made near-useless by the "no buildings" requirement.
- Pedia article on Influence tells you everything but the most important fact, which is influence consumption on all colonized worlds grows with the total number of colonies.
- Using primarily exobots for production, while all other planets are influence focused, except the capital. You require so much influence, because every planet/etc is in the negative influence if switched to any other focus. I think exobots colonies should cost a flat influence amount, this would free up some planets for other purposes. Otherwise only artistic species start can afford multi-focused empire.
- Influence penalty isn't scaling with planet size, so it's not worth placing a speacies with full admin upkeep penalty scaling (so other than exobot) on anything, but huge and large, maybe medium.
- Pretty much anything that requires too much stab is pointless, like "Blackhole Generator" (req. 20) is worse, than its alternative "Hyperspatial Dam" (req. 12).

wobbly
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#38 Post by wobbly »

gendalf wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:11 pm - Is "Indoctrination" just -1 influence and +10 stab(over time) everywhere?
The description text makes it sound like it's conditional, but it seems to be not.
The bonus to settled/previously conquered planets starts growing when you adopt the policy. For planets you invade after adopting the policy the bonus only starts growing from the turn conquered.
gendalf wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:11 pm - Environmentalism is made near-useless by the "no buildings" requirement.
What buildings are you putting on all your colonies? Most of mine are building free anyway.

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LienRag
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#39 Post by LienRag »

gendalf wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:11 pm - Influence penalty isn't scaling with planet size, so it's not worth placing a speacies with full admin upkeep penalty scaling (so other than exobot) on anything, but huge and large, maybe medium.
No, but yes that's the idea. You don't settle planets if you don't have a reason to, it's more interesting than the "settle everything" of previous versions.
Not saying that it couldn't be done better, though - if you have useful ideas about that please share them.


gendalf wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:11 pm I think exobots colonies should cost a flat influence amount, this would free up some planets for other purposes. Otherwise only artistic species start can afford multi-focused empire.
This is an example of a suggestion that can't work : if exobots colonies did cost a flat influence amount, they would be a no-brainer once an Empire grows enough, and we want to eliminate no-brainers for the game, not create new ones.

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drkosy
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#40 Post by drkosy »

I was thinking about Diversity for two reasons:

1st) With medium to high natives it seems to overpowered to me. It's easy to get 12 - 15 stability out of it.
2nd) I often capture other species just for the +0.5 stability boost. Even if it's a species witch can build colonies I only keep their homeworld as single planet for that species

That's why I thought it could be nice to have Diversity behave more like Moderation. Not only the number of species could be taken into account but how many colonies they settle as well. That could motivate to colonize with different races and not put Kobuntura everywhere...
Want some fresh experience? Try Kosymod

wobbly
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#41 Post by wobbly »

drkosy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:18 pm I was thinking about Diversity for two reasons:

1st) With medium to high natives it seems to overpowered to me. It's easy to get 12 - 15 stability out of it.
2nd) I often capture other species just for the +0.5 stability boost. Even if it's a species witch can build colonies I only keep their homeworld as single planet for that species

That's why I thought it could be nice to have Diversity behave more like Moderation. Not only the number of species could be taken into account but how many colonies they settle as well. That could motivate to colonize with different races and not put Kobuntura everywhere...
Yeah, diversity is way too strong with a large no. of species, pretty much means anything that clashes with it is effectively out of the game. The suggestion is interesting. I guess I'd like to see a test version to see how it plays.

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LienRag
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#42 Post by LienRag »

drkosy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:18 pm 2nd) I often capture other species just for the +0.5 stability boost. Even if it's a species witch can build colonies I only keep their homeworld as single planet for that species
Yeah, that's the idea. Imho a feature and not a bug.

drkosy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:18 pm It's easy to get 12 - 15 stability out of it.

Really ? That means 28 to 34 Species in your Empire, quite impressive to get that early enough to make a difference...
I never encountered such a situation, I'm lucky if I get +5 from it.


drkosy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:18 pm That's why I thought it could be nice to have Diversity behave more like Moderation. Not only the number of species could be taken into account but how many colonies they settle as well. That could motivate to colonize with different races and not put Kobuntura everywhere...

That could be interesting indeed but I'm not sure that it should replace Diversity rather than be a different Policy.


wobbly wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:44 am Yeah, diversity is way too strong with a large no. of species, pretty much means anything that clashes with it is effectively out of the game.
I'd say it's more the combination Diversity+Artisan Workshop that is out-competing any alternative to the point of being nearly a no-brainer.
But remember that these huge output policies are what makes the game actually playable now that the new mechanisms have quite broken it (extremely low RP production for most Empires without Necessity, stranded of Influence too early for many Empires without Artisan Workshop).

I'm not trying to say that things shouldn't be fixed, but kneecapping these policies until they become entirely lame is not the way to fix things.

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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#43 Post by Oberlus »

As usual, I disagree with LR's opinions.

I like drkosy idea for making Diversity depend on number of species in the empire and balance between them instead of current number of species alone.
The idea is that adding a single planet of a new species to a big empire won't make much of a difference until the empire gets more planets for that species to not be a tiny minority in the empire.
I'll try to find a equation for this, maybe using variance of planets per species or population per species.
It could also give different bonuses to each species depending on the prevalence in the empire of that species.

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LienRag
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#44 Post by LienRag »

Doesn't work at all for planetbound Species though...

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Oberlus
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Re: Feedback on stability and influence

#45 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:25 pm Doesn't work at all for planetbound Species though...
Wrong.

Currently it works the same for planetbound that for other species. With this, planetbound would be less interesting, but they would still contribute to number of species, which (as currently) would be considered.

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