Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

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truepurple
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Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#1 Post by truepurple »

I just learned there is a increased production cost based on the amount of and possibly the production value? of your current ships. I see nothing good that comes out of this, but a good number of bad things so it should be removed.(this is not a "demand", but a strong suggestion)

1. It's a hidden additional complication in the game, no one would expect it so no one would look for it.

2. Aside from the hidden thing new players would have no way to know about, it's also another thing to think about and deal with

3. I carefully looked in the hotkey options list and I see no hotkey for scrapping ships. This means I must hunt down and right click and hit scrap for each excess ship. Very forced pointless micromanaging. Even if there is a hidden better way to scrap ships, that doesn't really change my point here.

4. Makes building things like comsats extra pointless because you are just increasing the cost of future ships with each one.

5. Again, zero need for this in the game, also seems like it should be easy to change.

Is there anything similar for planet production?

Ophiuchus
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

Has been talked about a thousand times before. There is a search functionality.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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LienRag
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#3 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:57 pm 1. It's a hidden additional complication in the game, no one would expect it so no one would look for it.
That's a fair point actually, it's not easily understandable for new players, and it's about impossible to know the real cost (nor what to do about it) without extended calculations that implies to know the actual equations (which, afaik, are not in the Pedia).

The idea was to replace it entirely with Influence, right ?

o01eg
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#4 Post by o01eg »

LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:45 am The idea was to replace it entirely with Influence, right ?
Would be good. Also player need to see influence cost on each ship.
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truepurple
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#5 Post by truepurple »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:23 am What's planet production? Buildings? Ships are produced at planets...
Buildings on the planets terraforming etc. do they get more expensive with more ships?
LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:45 am The idea was to replace it entirely with Influence, right ?
Is that something in v5? Seems like unnecessary complexity, whatever it is. How does this influence system contribute to making the game fun? What is its purpose?

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Vezzra
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#6 Post by Vezzra »

truepurple wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 am
LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:45 am The idea was to replace it entirely with Influence, right ?
Is that something in v5?
It won't be already in the upcoming 0.5 release, but the idea is that eventually the increase cost mechanic will be replaced by influence maintenance costs. I expect it to arrive within the subsequent 0.5.x releases.
Seems like unnecessary complexity, whatever it is. How does this influence system contribute to making the game fun? What is its purpose?
Truepurple, have you read the various threads where that mechanic has been (or is being) discussed? If not, please do so, as that should give you the answer to your question.

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LienRag
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#7 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:29 am How does this influence system contribute to making the game fun? What is its purpose?
That is actually a very valid question...

Its purpose, which is also valid, is first and foremost to slow the snowball effect that makes early investments bring enormous ROI, reducing the strategic aspect of the game.

It's also supposed to allow for different mechanics in the game, notably non-military rivalry.

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Oberlus
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#8 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:46 pm That is actually a very valid question...

Its purpose, which is also valid, is first and foremost to slow the snowball effect that makes early investments bring enormous ROI, reducing the strategic aspect of the game.
A question answered in previous discusions.
More than reduce snowball that reduce strategy (what? No), it's to reduce gap between successful and less successful empires, so that it's less discouraging for players that are losing and more challenging for players that are winning. Absolutely good for fun. LR, maybe you too need to revisit those discusions.

truepurple
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#9 Post by truepurple »

Shouldn't what increases cost of ships, be number of planets colonized and their size that you control? Number of ships only and no matter their cost seems a very silly metric to use for increasing cost to even things out.

Also if my ideas about population growth by percentage were used, that would naturally eliminate the snowball effect that LR spoke of, which would naturally reduce how much anyone can get ahead of anyone else that Ob spoke of.
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:26 am Has been talked about a thousand times before. There is a search functionality.
I wouldn't know what key words to use in the search (or at least wouldn't till after making a thread like this if you are criticizing my having made this thread)

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LienRag
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#10 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:05 pm A question answered in previous discusions.
Their purpose, yes.
The fun they bring to the game, no (and I believe that I've read the discussions you mention).

I get your point about how making the game less quickly unwinnable for players that lag behind is good for fun, but that is a very low bar for fun...

And it doesn't answer the question of how Influence mechanisms would be fun to play.

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Oberlus
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#11 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:13 pm Their purpose, yes.
The fun they bring to the game, no (and I believe that I've read the discussions you mention).
You're wrong.
What I told you above is exactly what is commented in those discusions. I know because I was one of those saying it. If you think I'm wrong, go quote me from those discusions.

The other part, how influence is fun on itself, I don't know if it was told in those discusions. I think the answer is the same as for "how research and production is fun to play".

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LienRag
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#12 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:36 pm The other part, how influence is fun on itself, I don't know if it was told in those discusions. I think the answer is the same as for "how research and production is fun to play".
Clearly not good enough.

Research and production have some fun in them, that's true (notably the rewarding mechanisms that I wrote about in other topics, but also the necessity to plan well how to optimize them), but not enough fun, that definitely should be improved (Geoff is trying to do that with Research and the way I understand it, he's succeeding with his Exploration policy¹).

Also, they are making the rest of the game possible, which is quite fun (but again, not enough, there are many playtest returns that show how the game seems to be fun - so my opinion is that it can be some day - but how in the end it is actually quite quickly boring).

Adding a third mechanism that would not really be funny and interesting to play by itself is not a way to make for a more enjoyable game.




¹ Again, if it is a race and not tediously wandering from one Starlane to another.

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Oberlus
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Re: Please remove the increase cost for ship amount mechanic.

#13 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:09 pm Clearly not good enough.
IMNSHO you are just talking nonsense here.
The game is fun on itself. We add a mechanism that is similar to the already present ones, to improve some issues. It doesn't need to be funnier than the rest, if that even makes any sense, it just has to work well, address issues and allow for interesting choices.
Not interested on this argument anymore.

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