git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

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Oberlus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#16 Post by Oberlus »

I'd like to be able to blockade passage of fleets that are not allied nor at war with me, without initiating combat, so I like this fleet toggle.

So something like this:

- Stealth ships are hidden always, no matter fleet toggle, and can be targetted after first combat bout if they join the combat (otherwise they stay out of it and undetected).

Fleets still at a system:
- Passive fleets do not initiate combat nor blockade. Will join combat if they are valid targets for anyone in the combat, but will stay out of it otherwise (even if there are own/allied ships in the combat that participate in it).
- Aggressive fleets do blockade non-allied ships and do initiate combat with any non-allied incoming fleet. Alternative that I like: consider empire relations and initiate combat if the incoming fleet's empire is at war, just blockade if it is at peace, allow passage if allied.
- Obstruct passage fleets (too long name, something shorter, please) do blockade all non-allied ships but do not initiate combat, even against empires at war. Will join any combat initiated though.

Fleets arriving a system:
- Passive fleet: won't initiate combat, won't participate unless directly attacked (i.e. no difference with passive still fleets).
- Aggressive fleet: will initiate combat with any fleet at war, will join any combat (effectively as aggressive still, without the blockade).
- Obstructing fleet: won't initiate combat with any fleet, will join any combat (effectively as a obstruct still without the blockade).

I see usefulness in being able to decide if my armed stealth ships will or not join a combat in which allied/own ships are participating.

Ophiuchus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#17 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:47 am I'd like to be able to blockade passage of fleets that are not allied nor at war with me, without initiating combat, so I like this fleet toggle.

So something like this:

- Stealth ships are hidden always, no matter fleet toggle, and can be targetted after first combat bout if they join the combat (otherwise they stay out of it and undetected).

Fleets still at a system:
- Passive fleets do not initiate combat nor blockade. Will join combat if they are valid targets for anyone in the combat, but will stay out of it otherwise (even if there are own/allied ships in the combat that participate in it).
The "valid targets for anyone" part is not really feasable before processing combat as ships may become targetable during combat (depending on targetConditions checking bout or current structure...). And if we do check in combat, we have multi-turn hiding depending on the enemies. Or do a rollback if we encounter that situation. I'd rather not go there.

We could also rig the target conditions to consider the aggressiveness of the enemy ship. I'd rather not go there either.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:47 am- Aggressive fleets do blockade non-allied ships and do initiate combat with any non-allied incoming fleet. Alternative that I like: consider empire relations and initiate combat if the incoming fleet's empire is at war, just blockade if it is at peace, allow passage if allied.
- Obstruct passage fleets (too long name, something shorter, please) do blockade all non-allied ships but do not initiate combat, even against empires at war. Will join any combat initiated though. ...
I like the empire-relations idea.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:47 am I see usefulness in being able to decide if my armed stealth ships will or not join a combat in which allied/own ships are participating.
Me too, but having a "silent" fleet order (not joining combat at all, even if shot at) is more useful and has less issues. Probably change naming: naming passive "reactive" and silent "passive".


I prefer your suggestion for reusing aggressive fleet order for the purpose of stopping peaceful ships to having another fleet order. The use case "initiate combat, but dont stop peaceful ships" would not be possible. But i think this is rather rare.

One more thing: What I do not understand yet is how stopping peaceful ships and supply interact/who is able to establish blockade (e.g. if you have two parties who try to establish peaceful blockade).

Another issue: obstructing peaceful ships will probably very hard for AI to learn.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#18 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I think we are kind of back at the "Aggressive Ships Combat Visible" rule discussion. This "one ship" is giving me troubles - it is the same mechanism for triggering combat with aggressive hidden ships (for optimisation you need to bring along an extra ship to sacrifice in order to initiate combat).
I don't understand your concern here. You don't need to bring an extra ship to initiate combat if that's what you want; just set a fleet to initiate combat. A fleet being obstructive instead of set to initiate combat should have no effect on its stealth or participation in any combat that occurs... rather it just controls whether that fleet will initiate a combat if something visible and attackable is in the system.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#19 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:35 pmOne more thing: What I do not understand yet is how stopping peaceful ships and supply interact/who is able to establish blockade (e.g. if you have two parties who try to establish peaceful blockade).
Same as if there was a blockade then other ships arrived and participated in combat but weren't destroyed.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#20 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:21 pm
I think we are kind of back at the "Aggressive Ships Combat Visible" rule discussion. This "one ship" is giving me troubles - it is the same mechanism for triggering combat with aggressive hidden ships (for optimisation you need to bring along an extra ship to sacrifice in order to initiate combat).
I don't understand your concern here. You don't need to bring an extra ship to initiate combat if that's what you want; just set a fleet to initiate combat. A fleet being obstructive instead of set to initiate combat should have no effect on its stealth or participation in any combat that occurs...
I referred to "Yes, blockading should require giving up stealthiness for at least one ship in a system."
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#21 Post by Ophiuchus »

how about this:

if there are enemy stealthed ships set to obstruction you can initiate combat, you also get a visual hint about this, maybe even (some) stats of that ships

"aggressive" ships are not blockading (rename aggressive to e.g. skirmish?) but initiate combat and do not loose combat stealth.

blockade depends on the last turns ships were set to obstruction, so if you kill off those ships you might break the blockade even if the enemy has more military ships

"obstructive" ships are blockading, do not initiate combat and do loose (some) combat stealth.
this makes those more vulnerable (or damage soaking) but also makes it harder to break the blockade.

maaaybe also specialised weapons (or effects or "break blockade" fleet aggression) could target blockading ships first.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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LienRag
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#22 Post by LienRag »

The fact that getting a ship out of an "aggressive" fleet puts it in a new fleet that has "blockading" stance rather than aggressive is a PITA...
Also monster fleet change stance too (if they were put to "aggressive") when maturing (yes, I understand why it comes from, but it's still annoying).

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:40 am The fact that getting a ship out of an "aggressive" fleet puts it in a new fleet that has "blockading" stance rather than aggressive is a PITA...
How are you "getting a ship out of a fleet"? There is a control on the new fleet drop target for what aggression to give it.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#24 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:55 am
LienRag wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:40 am The fact that getting a ship out of an "aggressive" fleet puts it in a new fleet that has "blockading" stance rather than aggressive is a PITA...
How are you "getting a ship out of a fleet"? There is a control on the new fleet drop target for what aggression to give it.

By drag and drop ?
But it's the same when using the options revealed by right-clicking on the fleet ("create new fleet by design" or things like that).
Indeed this control seems to solve that problem, thank you.

It doesn't do anything for maturing monsters, though.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#25 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:30 amIt doesn't do anything for maturing monsters, though.
Effects can be scripted to act on ships after they are created with the CreateShip effect. This could be used to set their aggression.

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#26 Post by wobbly »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:13 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 amInvisible blockade not cool.
Yes, blockading should require giving up stealthiness for at least one ship in a system.
Broken.
stealth1.png
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stealth2.png
stealth2.png (199.31 KiB) Viewed 514 times
Complete and utter positional paralysis via invisible blockade.

Edit: A vacuum dragon that can't see me but can see red triggers combat and destroys invisible blockader.
stealth3.png
stealth3.png (250.38 KiB) Viewed 511 times
stealth4.png
stealth4.png (55.09 KiB) Viewed 511 times
Last edited by wobbly on Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Oberlus
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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#27 Post by Oberlus »

Does this affect 0.5?

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#28 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:49 pm Does this affect 0.5?
I'd have to download a copy of release to check but I assume so. I assume its been like this since the opening post of the thread 10/09/2020.

I'm also not sure if the same will happen in MP, as I just noticed this: cce6ef2a9a8e694c4121e2f6ebfb315659fa434e (explicitly make AI ships default obstructive)

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#29 Post by Oberlus »

New feature request for this issue: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4824

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Re: git-HEAD default aggression make the game tedious for humans-players

#30 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:20 am New feature request for this issue: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4824
I don't like the suggestion to apply -40 stealth to ships "after first turn of blockade". This suggests that there would be an advantage to swapping in and out of obstructive stance to reset that counter (every other turn, I guess).

Also, I don't think this mechanism needs to operate with arbitrary stealth values. Rather, there could be a game mechanic where ships (all or some?) in a fleet that is obstructing passage become visible to the owner of the obstructed fleet, regardless of stealth levels.

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