Testing Government and Influence

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#226 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:10 pm 1 - no real reflection about the way new mechanisms will make the game more fun to play
2 - Policies, the way they are implemented, could be more aptly called "random boni"... And the principle "I need this bonus so I take that Policy" is neither actually fun nor strategic.
1. New interesting choices, new strategies, more casuistry, better replayability... All that makes the game more enjoyable.
2. Disagree. Fluff and bonuses can be adjusted to make more sense, but they are enjoyable and imply strategic choices, which will improve with balance and adjustments. Implementation of the mechanic works.
If you have Capital Markets in a society, it doesn't change just one thing, it affects nearly everything in the society (read Polanyi).
That's what a Policy is, and probably what it should be in-game too.
Polanyi? :shock:
That's so pedantic. NA.
Policies in-game don't need to be realistic, just credible.
As was discussed in the pre-implementation phase, with Policies that have big disadvantages in the early game, and more advanced Policies that have less disadvantages in the late game, but all of them having many consequences on nearly all aspects of the game, not just one bonus on one point.
Current policies are not just one bonus on one point.
Anyways, do you want to help? Propose better fluffs and set of bonuses&maluses. Lengthy disgressions like this are a waste of time.

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Vezzra
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#227 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:36 pmYou are certainly right about that, especially with the 5.0 Release in mind, but basically that amounts to acknowledging that the new Influence, Policies and Stability mechanisms broke the game.
Of course they did. As Geoff pointed out, these are the most fundamental/drastic changes introduced in 8+ (I'd go further and say 10+) years.

To expect anything less than a broken game when those get first implemented, and that it will take quite a lot of time and effort to polish and balance things to make the game actually work again is utterly unrealistic.
And that you're unbreaking the game by making them less relevant.
No. You unbreak the game by addressing all the issues that come up when introducing such fundamental and big new mechanics. Which is why this game is still in alpha.
It's obviously better that keeping the game broken
We do not intend to make a release with things in a broken state. We will work on it until the game is reasonably "unbroken" again. Of course, the first 0.5 release will be more rough around the edges and less polished than how our releases usually are, but that's to be expected with a release of a game in alpha that introduces such big additions.

I've seen big companies releasing big AAA titles as "finished" products in worse states... ;)
but maybe that should warrant a deeper reflection on whether the design of these mechanism was actually done well
Making a first implementation and test things out is the way to find out all the issues, and what might have to be redesigned.
is it usual than new releases are unplayable to that extent and become usable by tweaking them time after time ?
Introducing such big additions/changes isn't usual, we don't do that with every release. But when we do, then yes, that is to be expected.
Because my impression is that some things can be bettered by experimenting and tweaking, but that some things in the design itself need to be redone entirely.
True, but to find that out, at some point you need to go ahead try it out - by implementing and testing it. Which we are currently doing. That might uncover flaws in the underlying design which are so bad that a major redesign has to be done, but I don't think we are anywhere near such a point currently.
So is it really time to make a 5.0 release, or should it be a 4.11 (without the Influence) ?
Unless we come to the conclusion that the current design is so badly broken that a major redesign (and a subsequent comlete re-implementation) is due (which, as stated above, isn't the case IMO), we're not going to make another intermediate 0.4.x release. You'd only postpone the inevitable, which is having to go through the pain and hassle that comes with adding big new things.

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Vezzra
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#228 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:10 pmMy beef is twofolds : 1 - no real reflection about the way new mechanisms will make the game more fun to play
Influence and it's related/dependent mechanics are supposed to address issues that currently impair fun quite seriously (by providing means to counter the notorious "snowballing" effect/dynamic). This is a fundamental problem every 4X game has, and usually 4X games have mechanics in place that try to manage/counter/mitigate that.

Usually by providing some kind of "maintenance" mechanics, which basically are some kind of recurring costs that increase the bigger you get/the more assets you acquire. "Influence" is ours. The idea is that the bigger (and more diverse) your empire gets, the more assets you have (colonies, ships, buildings, etc.), the more effort is required to administrate all that. In FO that effort is represented by the basic/fundamental resource "Influence" which you need to spend to keep your empire together, and things running smoothly.

In addition to that, Influence is intended to be the resource required by "Influence projects" (will be introduced in subsequent releases), which are (among other things) projects/operations of the diplomatic or espionage/sabotage kind. Basically to provide things to do and goals to achieve in a non-militaristic way. E.g. right now the only way to incorporate a native species planet into your empire is by conquest. We want to provide means to e.g. convice them to join your empire peacefully.

Influence is the fundamental framework on which the mechanics that provide those means will be built.

I consider that as sufficient fun to justify an addition of a magnitude like the Influence mechanic.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#229 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:25 amE.g. right now the only way to incorporate a native species planet into your empire is by conquest. We want to provide means to e.g. convice them to join your empire peacefully.
I did just add a few policies that let an empire extract resources (production, influence, maybe research?) from unowned planets in their supply network. This doesn't involve those planets actually joining the empire in the sense that a player's empire controls a colony or outpost or ship. This is an imcomplete feature though, as there will need to be some form of tracking of how much non-owned planets or the species on them like or dislike empires, and adjustments to what one can do to interact with those planets as a result... ie. the "convincing" without invasion part. The current content is doable for now, and also should help with the recently complained-about issues with very large empires being impossible due to influence cost scaling: instead of conquering them, you just control their systems(s) and extract resources from them that way.

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#230 Post by Oberlus »

I made a PR to make policy adoption costs based on number of owned planets or owned population use the square root of those magnitudes, to make it possible (still difficult) adopting policies late game.

I'll wait until that one is reviewed and hopefully merged to do other minor changes to make some policies better fluff-wise.

wobbly
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#231 Post by wobbly »

The scaling from liberty and conformance is only affecting buildings (not specials or policies). This is either a bug or the policy description is misleading.

My preferene is it affecting specials/policies in which case policies_macros and specials_macros are missing a line.

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Grummel7
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#232 Post by Grummel7 »

Well, at the moment you have no problem paying huge amounts of influence in games with lots of species, though I feel the order of this effects should possibly be changed:
influence.png
influence.png (28.85 KiB) Viewed 840 times
With 4 species, the translator generates 12 influence, with is multiplied by 1.5 (good influence) and 2 (indoctrination). With even more species, one or two small planets can provide enough influence for a really big empire.

Perhaps the bonus of the translator should be added last of all?

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#233 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:32 pm Perhaps the bonus of the translator should be added last of all?
I don't know. It makes sense that more influential species can get the most of a universal translator.
If it is OP, maybe down the base x3 of the building to x2.

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LienRag
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#234 Post by LienRag »

Where does the "whatever" comes from in the screenshot ?

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#235 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:01 am Where does the "whatever" comes from in the screenshot ?
Empire name.

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LienRag
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#236 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:17 am
LienRag wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:01 am Where does the "whatever" comes from in the screenshot ?
Empire name.
:lol: :roll: :wink:

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Grummel7
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#237 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:48 am
Grummel7 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:32 pm Perhaps the bonus of the translator should be added last of all?
I don't know. It makes sense that more influential species can get the most of a universal translator.
If it is OP, maybe down the base x3 of the building to x2.
Well, 3 per Number of species may be okay. But the way it is now, you get 9 with good and even 12 with great influence (Derthrean). The influence generated by the population is almost insignificant, a tiny planet can act as a perfect propaganda machine.

My suggestion is to put the non-population dependent values at the end, like this:
Now43.2Suggestion21.15
Influence Focus+3.87Influence Focus3.87
Indoctrination Cost-1.00Good Influence1.94
Translator+12.0Indoctrination Multi5.81
Good Influence+7.44Indoctrination Cost-1.00
Indoctrination Multi+22.3Translator+12.0
Colony Upkeep-1.46Colony Upkeep[-1.46

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Oberlus
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#238 Post by Oberlus »

Indoctrination x2 multiplier is OP in any case.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#239 Post by wobbly »

The translator alone is a big bonus, not sure how this is going to be balanced for xenophobes.

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Grummel7
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#240 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:22 pm Indoctrination x2 multiplier is OP in any case.
Well, maybe it should be reduced, especially since the Stability bonus makes it very valuable anyway.
But you should take into account that it also adds 1 point to the upkeep of every colony.

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