Testing Government and Influence

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labgnome
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Testing Government and Influence

#1 Post by labgnome »

So I have had my first experience doing some testing-out of the latest build. A few thoughts so far...

Minor nit-picks:

Racial Purity should probably be at the Concentration Camps technology, rather than Architectural Psychology.

The entry for the Balance policy is just confusing.

There should be more than one starting economic policy.

Major issues:

What are the criteria for the different policy types? This is especially unclear for social and economic policies.

Good influence traits are not showing-up in the planetary display for the meters nor is it effecting output.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:31 pmWhat are the criteria for the different policy types? This is especially unclear for social and economic policies.
Not sure what you mean... "criteria" in what sense?

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#3 Post by labgnome »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:01 pm
labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:31 pmWhat are the criteria for the different policy types? This is especially unclear for social and economic policies.
Not sure what you mean... "criteria" in what sense?
Like what makes a social policy a social policy, what makes a military policy, and what makes an economic policy an economic policy? What are the criteria? How are they organized?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#4 Post by Geoff the Medio »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:16 pmLike what makes a social policy a social policy, what makes a military policy, and what makes an economic policy an economic policy?
Is the 1) concept and 2) effect of the policy mostly related to:

-military (ships, troops, planet weapons, shields, detection)

-economics (trade, supply, resources, economic systems)

-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)

There may be some overlap cases, but I don't find too many.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#5 Post by labgnome »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:59 pm
labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:16 pmLike what makes a social policy a social policy, what makes a military policy, and what makes an economic policy an economic policy?
Is the 1) concept and 2) effect of the policy mostly related to:

-military (ships, troops, planet weapons, shields, detection)
Straight-forward enough, and military policies were fairly clear to me.
-economics (trade, supply, resources, economic systems)
Free Orion supply, and sort-of has resources but doesn't have trade or economic systems.
-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)
Again, Free Orion currently has none of those things, except for maybe inter-species relations.
There may be some overlap cases, but I don't find too many.
It's not a case of overlap, but a lack of clarity for how the policy categories relate to game concepts. Mechanically speaking, economic and social policies are all over the place, at least from my perspective. For example, where should a research boosting policy go?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:38 amFree Orion supply, and sort-of has resources but doesn't have trade or economic systems.
Now it does, via policies.
-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)
Again, Free Orion currently has none of those things, except for maybe inter-species relations.
Again, now it does.
...how the policy categories relate to game concepts.
They don't necessarily.
Mechanically speaking, economic and social policies are all over the place, at least from my perspective. For example, where should a research boosting policy go?
Research could be affected by a policy in any of the categories; depends what that policy thematically and mechanically does. If it's something about society making research in general a goal or ideal, then social. If it's something about how the economy is structured that results in a research bonus of some sort, then economic. It could also go in military with suitable fluff explanation, probably with some combat-related gimmick like getting research for each enemy ship your empire destroys or somehow affecting research of particular categories of techs.

As with the new species discussion, you probably still want to approach policy and content design by making a grid of all permutations of some type of bonus and filling it in. That's not how I do it or want it done.

Which is not to say that all policy categories should be interchangable in terms of gameplay. There can be general groups of bonuses or game mechanics variations that tend to appear in a particular category, such that there's a reason to try to get more of a particular category of policy slot than the others.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#7 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:38 am Free Orion supply, and sort-of has resources but doesn't have trade or economic systems.
Of course it has an economic system. It is the economic system what provides PP to/from the factories, RP to/from the labs, food on the table, etc.

Check out the meaning of "economic system".

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:38 am
-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)
Again, Free Orion currently has none of those things, except for maybe inter-species relations.
Again, you're wrong. Each empire and the colonies within it, have a social organization.
Some of the concepts have no real mechanic currently, but give it time.

Meanwhile, the categorization is clear enough, and simple to understand.

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:38 am It's not a case of overlap, but a lack of clarity for how the policy categories relate to game concepts. Mechanically speaking, economic and social policies are all over the place, at least from my perspective. For example, where should a research boosting policy go?
What? What policy you don't understand? Or you don't understand the categories themselves but are OK with all policies?
A research boosting policy will go in (be unlocked by) the tech that better relates to its concept, but try to balance the effects (bonus/malus) with how difficult it is to get to that tech.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#8 Post by labgnome »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:18 am
labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:38 amFree Orion supply, and sort-of has resources but doesn't have trade or economic systems.
Now it does, via policies.
-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)
Again, Free Orion currently has none of those things, except for maybe inter-species relations.
Again, now it does.
Just because its part of a policy's name or fluff doesn't make it a game element. You should know better than that.
...how the policy categories relate to game concepts.
They don't necessarily.
Then why even have different categories at all?
Mechanically speaking, economic and social policies are all over the place, at least from my perspective. For example, where should a research boosting policy go?
Research could be affected by a policy in any of the categories; depends what that policy thematically and mechanically does. If it's something about society making research in general a goal or ideal, then social. If it's something about how the economy is structured that results in a research bonus of some sort, then economic. It could also go in military with suitable fluff explanation, probably with some combat-related gimmick like getting research for each enemy ship your empire destroys or somehow affecting research of particular categories of techs.
I see multiple problems with this as an approach and as an explanation:

Firstly, it smacks of "arguing from realism". Something we aren't supposed to be doing here. Just because real life works a certain way doesn't mean Free Orion should work that way.

Secondly, that kind of completely unrestricted free-form design makes it impossible for someone like me to understand and navigate. This is both as a player and as a contributor.

Thirdly, I can see two issues emerging from this kind of justification. The first is that someone could, in this example, potentially fill-in all their policy slots with research boosts, rocketing ahead of everyone else. The second is that it still allows the problem of allowing the player to be good at everything, by splitting their outputs between policy slots. Neither of which I see as desirable outcomes.
As with the new species discussion, you probably still want to approach policy and content design by making a grid of all permutations of some type of bonus and filling it in. That's not how I do it or want it done.
What does my approach to native species have to do with this? I'm well aware that policies can do more than just give bonuses. I had just hoped that there was some underlying logic to the system that I had missed.

But I also have to ask: why do you hate symmetry, elegance and beauty?
Which is not to say that all policy categories should be interchangable in terms of gameplay. There can be general groups of bonuses or game mechanics variations that tend to appear in a particular category, such that there's a reason to try to get more of a particular category of policy slot than the others.
Then what rules should they follow?
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#9 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:24 am Of course it has an economic system. It is the economic system what provides PP to/from the factories, RP to/from the labs, food on the table, etc.
Free Orion has no factories, labs or food. Certainly not as game elements, which is what matters here.
Check out the meaning of "economic system".
This also smacks of "arguing from reality". As I said to Geoff, just because real life works a certain way doesn't mean Free Orion should work that way.
Again, you're wrong. Each empire and the colonies within it, have a social organization.
Not as game mechanics.
Some of the concepts have no real mechanic currently, but give it time.
That's exactly my point! There is no real mechanic in the game for most of these things mentioned. They're not in the game currently and that's what matters.
Meanwhile, the categorization is clear enough, and simple to understand.
Not for someone like me.
What? What policy you don't understand? Or you don't understand the categories themselves but are OK with all policies?
A research boosting policy will go in (be unlocked by) the tech that better relates to its concept, but try to balance the effects (bonus/malus) with how difficult it is to get to that tech.
I grok exactly none of it.
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 am Then why even have different categories at all?
For having different policies in the same category competing for the same slot. Fluff is the design tool to explain the categorization to the players and to help one remember where which effect is.
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 am But I also have to ask: why do you hate symmetry, elegance and beauty?
Did you ever build a completely symmetric machine? Yes, symmetry, yes elegance, yes beauty. Does it work? No
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 am
Which is not to say that all policy categories should be interchangable in terms of gameplay. There can be general groups of bonuses or game mechanics variations that tend to appear in a particular category, such that there's a reason to try to get more of a particular category of policy slot than the others.
Then what rules should they follow?
That is a good/the right question to ask.
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:04 am
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 am
Geoff wrote:Which is not to say that all policy categories should be interchangable in terms of gameplay. There can be general groups of bonuses or game mechanics variations that tend to appear in a particular category, such that there's a reason to try to get more of a particular category of policy slot than the others.
Then what rules should they follow?
That is a good/the right question to ask.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:59 pm Is the 1) concept and 2) effect of the policy mostly related to:

-military (ships, troops, planet weapons, shields, detection)

-economics (trade, supply, resources, economic systems)

-sociology (how societies are organized or run, inter-species relations, how decisions are made, how nominal "rulers" are chosen, how decisions / rules are enforced, what ideals society elevates)

There may be some overlap cases
And in case of overlapping, let you be influenced by gameplay balance.

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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#12 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:04 am For having different policies in the same category competing for the same slot. Fluff is the design tool to explain the categorization to the players and to help one remember where which effect is.
The fluff is confusing and unclear to me in that area. The policies aren't grouped in the 'pedia, and the text itself does not make it clear where a policy belongs. Some policies could arguably be social or economic, or even any of the three, and without clear rules or patterns its just a confusing mess from my perspective.
Did you ever build a completely symmetric machine? Yes, symmetry, yes elegance, yes beauty. Does it work? No
More arguing from realism. How does that impact enjoyability or balance? Games need good rules and structure. Games are also supposed to be a possible escape from reality, not more of its problems.
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 am
Which is not to say that all policy categories should be interchangable in terms of gameplay. There can be general groups of bonuses or game mechanics variations that tend to appear in a particular category, such that there's a reason to try to get more of a particular category of policy slot than the others.
Then what rules should they follow?
That is a good/the right question to ask.
And you didn't ask that first? Namely, I think that all the output (industry, influence and research) effecting policies should be in the same category. That way you have to make a choice. Probably the economic slot. The military slot is mostly fine, and everything else an go into the social policy slot.
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:55 pm..
Sorry, you do not seem to understand what i write (or vice versa).
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#14 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:46 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:55 pm..
Sorry, you do not seem to understand what i write (or vice versa).
I think I might have mistaken you for Geoff, but my main points still stand. I find the material confusing. Everyone seems to want to argue from reality now. And there should be clear, game mechanic based rules for what goes where.
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Re: Testing Government and Influence

#15 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:28 pm there should be clear, game mechanic based rules for what goes where.
They are clear enough to me.

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