Trying last version

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LienRag
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Trying last version

#1 Post by LienRag »

So I tried both last stable and last beta, and here are some feedbacks :

- Fighters : now at least they actually have very specialized roles, I really like that both for fleet composition and for general clarity (it was quite confusing before to have three different options without clear indications of what they were for).
The fact that interceptors do not damage ships at all (rather that inflicting limited damage only after there are no more fighters) and that flak doesn't damage ships at all either (ditto) is a bit weird but I guess it's just a thing that need getting used to.

- Arc Disruptor : I'm not sure I used them well but I've read about what they were designed for (countering chaff) and I guess that's a valid choice.

- Fuel efficiency : Very interesting concept, it makes early scouting much less a micromanagement hassle, and it provides a genuine use for the Spatial Flux Bubble (which is more expensive than the symbiotic hull, more vulnerable, and slower too, with a stealth bonus that is quite inconsistent).
It makes hulls more varied too (especially in the Organic line, which I tend to play, getting the Protoplasmic Hull to be quite interesting), the only problem I have is the Bio-adaptative hull is now nearly useless compared to the Endosymbiotic hull.
The Sentient Hull is also quite nerfed by its low fuel efficiency, which goes both way : it makes it less of a no-brainer once you unlocked it, which is good, but also it makes it less useful even as it is underpowered compared to other late-game hulls with Core slots.
Fulver are made quite interesting by this trait though.

- Zero-Point Fuel Generator is still a pain in the neck in less efficient fuel hulls as it has no fuel limit as it is, but the UI doesn't understand it and so doesn't allow to send ships with ZPFG anywhere on the map, one has to choose a destination very close to supply and from there make very micromanagy small hops from systems to system.

- The fact that planets cannot be invaded on odd turns after their shields have been reduced to zero has been already signaled I think.

- Playing Sly I got to better understand the Imperial Stockpile and I still consider that it is somewhat of a bad idea (prevents the effects of disrupting enemy supply lines, which is a much more interesting strategy that putting big stacks of ships against big stacks of ships) but I can't find a better way to allow Sly-like gameplay and obviously having a different possibility of playing one's empire indeed enriches the game.

- Changing the Gas Giant Generator so that it provides only +5 when it's inhabited is a bit frustrating when playing Sly but maybe it's indeed better for game balance ?

- For the first time I finished the game and was surprised to not see anything but an ambiguous sitrep message to announce victory. Someone explained elsewhere that it's because Freeorion is still on Alpha but just a pretty pop-up would be more rewarding imho. Maybe we can ask Bestiary to draw it ? I really like most of his illustrations for the various species.

- On a 400-systems 10-opponents game it took me around 160 turns to clearly achieve military and scientific dominance (I mean, the moment where I was reasonably confident that I had no bad surprise to expect from my opponents, notably that I didn't have to establish very careful strategies and fleet composition to defend my planets and attack theirs but could just launch big stacks of ships in the general direction of their Imperial Palaces and provide reinforcements when needed) and then 50 very tedious turns to finally destroy them all and reach military victory.
That is clearly not a good balance, there should maybe be at first a setting that makes all opponents ally against the player when the player reaches a certain level of production and research superiority, and a second setting that generates surrender when the AI has no more chance to even really hinder the player's military ?

- I encountered the Experimentators for the first time, it was a bit challenging at first to understand how to deal with them but after that I just massed ships and troops on a nearby planet where I build a lot of Starlane bores and I conquered the only Experimentator planet quite easily. Are they supposed to expand further if not conquered quickly ?

- On one game I deleted a ship design rather than obsolete it, and from that turn on the Ship list on the Ship-design menu was a total mess, especially when reloading a game : designs disappeared completely and had to be re-loaded from the "saved" list, sometimes it was not possible to update a ship since it was considered "identical to an existing design", and so on.

- I love the "White Kraken" special, it makes for very different games as one needs to very carefully plan how one'll use this powerful but slow and unique combat ship.

- I love the World Tree and Panopticon concept, but they're not very useful actually.

- Wardens and Honeycombs are matched in power but maybe still a bit much ?

- I read about the Scylior nerf, and well all I can say is that I haven't played them after that, so maybe it's working as intended.

- I've never met a Psionic Snowflake, do they actually exist ? Where do they come from ?

- I still don't really understand how upkeep works, but apparently it has changed ? I noticed that I had expensive ships around three times more expensive than less expensive ships, even in late game, I guess that's a result of the new upkeep calculations ? IIRC, ship costs were usually flattened late-game by the cost of upkeep so it was nearly always better to build only the more powerful ships...

- I've read why comsat hull is now much more expensive, and I understand the reason, but having in-system outposts and colonies much cheaper than out-system was quite an important factor to account for in early planning and I quite miss it.

- For the first time I had no Mu Ursh (nor other Great Pilot species) so it was useful to combine different fleet with different strong points (Acirema for shields, Hhoh for pilots, Fulver for fuel) which made for a more interesting game.

- Sitrep navigation without missing anything is quite difficult.
I discovered that clicking on the lift below its present location usually brought me to the next page of the sitrep, but depending on the way the sitrep window was stretched it could lead to some inconsistent behavior, sometime missing one line (going from line 1...n and a half either to lines n+1...p OR to lines n+2...p+1) which can have some dire consequences if one misses an important report.

- The report of incoming fleet is a VERY good UX improvement from earlier versions (yes I know that it didn't appear right now) but :
1 - it seems not to work, and in an inconsistent manner, when fleet are engaged in combat
2 - it apparently works even when the incoming fleet is too stealthy for my empire to detect it - so I know that something is coming even if I shouldn't have this information
3 - it doesn't report incoming collisions, which shouldn't be difficult to predict (the server knows exactly where fleet are going, right?) and would be also an improvement (I'd like to play Ironman - no reloading - but there's no fun in losing a fleet just because one didn't check ALL the fleet reaching a destination this turn)

- There is still no telling of WHERE exactly the overflow of production points happens from the Production menu (which only says if it's in the current system or not). Making the red number clickable (and leading to the biggest overflowing system) would be really useful.
Yes there are visual clues (good graphic design actually) on the Galaxy Map and usually one can guess where the waste is occurring and then check on the Galaxy Map but sometimes it's not so easy and it can become a real pain in the neck.
Obviously overflow is less of a problem now since it gets on the stockpile rather than being actually wasted, but still.

- Are ships getting out of a Molecular Cloud not supposed to get their shields back ? Mine were still at zero even after a few turns...

- Having clear borders of clouds is very nice, but as someone already pointed the fact that the border scales with the cloud size is unaesthetic. If I understand correctly, that's not easy to fix, so I guess it can wait.
Note that once I had a Ion Storm between two Molecular Clouds and it was apparently impossible to make the border of the Ion Storm appear, any mouse-over would show one of the Molecular Cloud's border, never the Ion Storm's.

- I sometimes had sub-windows reduced to a very small stub on the top right of the screen, it took me some time to understand that and a less experimented player would more likely consider that they weren't there at all.

- I get why the Carriers are detected after launch (the Silent Carrier was too powerful) but I still think that it removes a valid Stealth strategy (maybe make them detected when the fighters do damage, on round two ?).

- It is definitely more strategic and more fun to have Situational stealth (especially from enemies) than Generic stealth. Seeing a ship on the Galaxy Map and then having it disappear (while knowing it was an Asteroid Hull so it can only hide in one of the asteroid system) is really interesting, much more than having unseen ships suddenly drop death on you.

- "Ghost" fleet are a bit annoying when one doesn't understand they're ghosts, and sometimes subsides even when new Detection levels should clearly show that there's nothing there.

- At early game, when it's the more tactically interesting (both in terms of efficiency and fun) the Disruption Modulator is not cheaper to research than the next Detection technology which brings the same bonus but Galaxy-wide, which means de DM is nearly useless.

- Technologies not put in the research list are researched nonetheless when Research points overflow, which is good for newbies but has the inconvenience that unwanted Techs are researched. Yes, from a purely in-game efficiency perspective, there are no detrimental techs, but some players may want to avoid some techs. I know that it's a game, I know that they're a historical fact and so could come again, I know we're not playing nice people, I know they're very coherent with Xenophobic species, but I'm still uneasy with Concentration Camps (my mother's pre-school teacher was sent to one, so it's difficult to abstract them entirely) and having them appear on the construction list of all my planets is something I'd rather avoid.

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Oberlus
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Re: Trying last version

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Experimentators do not expand, but they keep producing more and more very powerful monsters that can kill your populations. Also Psyonic Snowflakes. Dealing with Experimentors quickly is relatively easy, but when they appear on the other side of the galaxy and you take your time to get there, by that time there are bloated juggernauts all over the place and can be a PITA.
Ship-design menu was a total mess
That's been solved recently.

Ship upkeep:
There are two form, one that only takes into account number of ships (by default).
One that takes into account number of ships and number of ship parts in them.
In both cases, the more ships (and parts) you have, the more expensive will be the following ships you build.
These are the equations:

Code: Select all

FLEET_UPKEEP_MULTIPLICATOR
'''(1 +
    (1 - (GameRule name = "RULE_SHIP_PART_BASED_UPKEEP")) * (       // This part
        (0.01 * ShipDesignsOwned empire = Source.Owner) +           // for ship-based
        (0.01 * ShipDesignsInProduction empire = Source.Owner)) +   // upkeep.
    (GameRule name = "RULE_SHIP_PART_BASED_UPKEEP") * (                                 // From here on the part-based upkeep
        (0.002 * ShipPartsOwned empire = Source.Owner class = ShortRange) +
        (0.002 * ShipPartsOwned empire = Source.Owner class = FighterHangar) +
        (0.002 * ShipPartsOwned empire = Source.Owner class = Armour) +
        (0.002 * ShipPartsOwned empire = Source.Owner class = Troops) +
        (0.002 * ShipDesignsOwned empire = Source.Owner) +
        (0.01 * ShipDesignsInProduction empire = Source.Owner)))'''
having in-system outposts and colonies much cheaper than out-system was quite an important factor to account for in early planning and I quite miss it
In-system outposts and colonies are still cheaper. The increase in PP of the base hull was from 3 to 6, medium hulls are 20. The colony and outpost parts cost 120 and 50. The overall difference in PP cost is negligible.



Incoming fleet sitrep:
1 - it seems not to work, and in an inconsistent manner, when fleet are engaged in combat
2 - it apparently works even when the incoming fleet is too stealthy for my empire to detect it - so I know that something is coming even if I shouldn't have this information
3 - it doesn't report incoming collisions
Points 1 (*) and 2 should be reported, preferably with a save file 2 turns before it happens.
Point 3 is probably as intended: you don't know if the other incoming fleet is going to stop in that same galaxy or continue. (*) might be related to this.



More things to comment on your post, no time now.

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Re: Trying last version

#3 Post by UrshMost »

LienRag wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:20 am So I tried both last stable and last beta, and here are some feedbacks :

- Changing the Gas Giant Generator so that it provides only +5 when it's inhabited is a bit frustrating when playing Sly but maybe it's indeed better for game balance ?
The gas giant generator is intended to provide a boost to other planets in the system that are set to production focus. You will not see production on the gas giant itself unless there is a species populating the gas giant with a production focus, ie Sly.
- For the first time I finished the game and was surprised to not see anything but an ambiguous sitrep message to announce victory.
I just play until the game graphs for total military strength and for production show i have a dominating lead over everyone else and consider that a win and end the game. I'm personally here for the game mechanics at this point and not pretty graphics, though some kind of win/loss scoreboard would be cool.
- I love the World Tree and Panopticon concept, but they're not very useful actually.
It depends on the game; in some situations where you are trying to spread a xenophobic and unhappy species the world tree happiness boost can be that little bit extra that you need. Same thing with the panopticon boost, its not always useful but sometimes its just what you need to see that hidden planet that you want.
- Wardens and Honeycombs are matched in power but maybe still a bit much ?
Interestingly over my last five games I've had two with unprotected honeycomb specials.
- I've never met a Psionic Snowflake, do they actually exist ? Where do they come from ?
They are one of the later monsters generated by the Experimenter planet, they come in batches and they are nasty if you use organic piloted ships.
- I still don't really understand how upkeep works, but apparently it has changed ? I noticed that I had expensive ships around three times more expensive than less expensive ships, even in late game, I guess that's a result of the new upkeep calculations ? IIRC, ship costs were usually flattened late-game by the cost of upkeep so it was nearly always better to build only the more powerful ships...
I haven't compared ship costs versus recent builds but they can vary quite a bit depending on what options you throw at them, i.e. adding a spinal antimatter cannon can almost double the cost of a typical Self Grav. Hull.
- Sitrep navigation without missing anything is quite difficult.
I discovered that clicking on the lift below its present location usually brought me to the next page of the sitrep, but depending on the way the sitrep window was stretched it could lead to some inconsistent behavior, sometime missing one line (going from line 1...n and a half either to lines n+1...p OR to lines n+2...p+1) which can have some dire consequences if one misses an important report.
I just scroll through it with my mouse wheel. If you click on the filters button at you can disable messages that you don't care about. Also, if you right click on the icon at the beginning of a sitrep line you can tweak various options about it.
- The report of incoming fleet is a VERY good UX improvement from earlier versions (yes I know that it didn't appear right now) but :
1 - it seems not to work, and in an inconsistent manner, when fleet are engaged in combat
2 - it apparently works even when the incoming fleet is too stealthy for my empire to detect it - so I know that something is coming even if I shouldn't have this information
this bugs me a bit too but I assume it will eventually get fixed.
3 - it doesn't report incoming collisions, which shouldn't be difficult to predict (the server knows exactly where fleet are going, right?)
The report is not using the server's knowlege of where the fleet is going, it is trying to act like a lookout on your system or fleet warning you that there are bad guys headed this way. It will only tell you when there is a fleet in motion in the last segment heading towards one of your systems or one of your parked fleets. It doesn't know at that point if that incoming fleet will stop at that system or not, just that it is incoming and one turn away. If on the previous turn it was sitting at an adjacent system, it doesn't know if it intends to move or not and won't give you a warning.
and would be also an improvement (I'd like to play Ironman - no reloading - but there's no fun in losing a fleet just because one didn't check ALL the fleet reaching a destination this turn)
For me there is no fun in reloading after a bad outcome, that's cheating. If someone dies under your command mister, you better take that lesson to heart and make sure it doesn't happen again! (okay maybe I take this a little to seriously.)
- There is still no telling of WHERE exactly the overflow of production points happens from the Production menu (which only says if it's in the current system or not). Making the red number clickable (and leading to the biggest overflowing system) would be really useful.
Yes there are visual clues (good graphic design actually) on the Galaxy Map and usually one can guess where the waste is occurring and then check on the Galaxy Map but sometimes it's not so easy and it can become a real pain in the neck.
Assuming that you still have items in your production queue, wasted production points means that there are systems that are not connected to your main network of systems by supply lines, i.e. something has probably interrupted a supply line somewhere. This is easy enough to see in the galaxy map, look for your supply lines that are the wrong color. This will show you what systems are no longer connected and you can either fix the blockade (kill it) or start building something at any planet in the set of orphaned systems. All of the production points from a group of orphaned systems work together, assuming they are connected to each other, just not to your main systems, just like they do normally. Sometimes when I am getting overrun I will have 3 or 4 subsets of systems that are blockaded from my main home systems, but they can still be working on their own production items.
- Are ships getting out of a Molecular Cloud not supposed to get their shields back ? Mine were still at zero even after a few turns...
It does seem to take a few turns but yes they should come back.
- Technologies not put in the research list are researched nonetheless when Research points overflow, which is good for newbies but has the inconvenience that unwanted Techs are researched. Yes, from a purely in-game efficiency perspective, there are no detrimental techs, but some players may want to avoid some techs. I know that it's a game, I know that they're a historical fact and so could come again, I know we're not playing nice people, I know they're very coherent with Xenophobic species, but I'm still uneasy with Concentration Camps (my mother's pre-school teacher was sent to one, so it's difficult to abstract them entirely) and having them appear on the construction list of all my planets is something I'd rather avoid.
I play like I imagine an Ethical/Good species would react, and do not research techs that my empire considers 'evil'. I make sure I have always have enough items in my research queue so that there are not unallocated research points. After all, if you don't supervise your researchers, is it really their fault or yours if their unsupervised musings take them down a dark path? I think it would be interesting if that were a feature of the game; if species had morality traits and their happiness varied depending on actions? xenophobic species would get a boost from concentration camps, others a penalty; etc. but that is a whole conversation by itself, and probably best left until the game is more mature.
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Ophiuchus
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Re: Trying last version

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:00 am
LienRag wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:20 am So I tried both last stable and last beta, and here are some feedbacks :

- Changing the Gas Giant Generator so that it provides only +5 when it's inhabited is a bit frustrating when playing Sly but maybe it's indeed better for game balance ?
The gas giant generator is intended to provide a boost to other planets in the system that are set to production focus. You will not see production on the gas giant itself unless there is a species populating the gas giant with a production focus, ie Sly.
LienRag meant that you only got +5 instead of +10 if your Gas Giant is inhabited. It is there for game balance and gives you an option - sometimes it is better not to build a colony on a gas giant especially if there are multiple gas giants in a system.
UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:00 am
LienRag wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:20 am 2 - it apparently works even when the incoming fleet is too stealthy for my empire to detect it - so I know that something is coming even if I shouldn't have this information
this bugs me a bit too but I assume it will eventually get fixed.
Somebody please open an issue
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LienRag
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Re: Trying last version

#5 Post by LienRag »

I tried the last version (with Oberlus' nerf, the last snap available) on a standard game (the only thing I changed from default settings was put played race at random, and it gave me Scylior).

So, yes, it's a bit different.
Obviously when everything is nerfed, what that means is that what has been left untouched is boosted.
Namely, the Capital bonus¹ and the natural focus-related output (which means also the species traits influencing outputs).
Also of course, it (comparatively) raises the cost of buildings and techs.

I'm not sure that I played entirely right (and I didn't do the math) but it swerved me towards Population techs (as it would affect my Capitol) and some military techs rather than rushing towards AA as usual.
Techs with low cost and long research times are much more interesting now of course - if this means more long-term planning I guess it's good.

I'm not necessarily a very good player but I don't think that I played much worse than usual, and with Scyliors² even at turn 150 I had only 300 RP per turn, which means that for the first time I understood the need to choose one Hull line and stick to it (usually I go Organic first and turn to Asteroid to get Crystalline Armor as soon as I have excess RP). Having to choose research path carefully up until late game (usually soon after getting a telepathic specie and Distributed Thought Computing I just need to prioritize which tech I get first, not choose which I won't get) was indeed more strategic.

I hit 1 K production much later in the game, but as my opponents weren't any better it wasn't really a problem.
It made the cost of advanced Shipyards not trivial though, and I guess it's a good thing for strategic thinking. I didn't build any Stargate either since they are so expensive and on a small galaxy I wouldn't really need them.

In conclusion, I had a lot of doubts about this nerf but I guess it goes quite well - obviously it will need a lot more testing.
Usually the game is a serie of big steps (getting NAI, then AA, SOG, BPHG, etc.) which change the player's perspective once they're reached; now obviously much less so, and I don't know what to think about that - these steps were game-changing which meant both emotionally rewarding and making for a varied game experience along the flow of time.

Note that Nanotech Medecine doesn't explain that it allows for Artificial Minds.

The "Exobots Adequate everywhere" isn't to my liking, but I don't know if it's just because I'm not used to it.

I didn't meet any Experimentator even if I didn't finish the game before turn 300, is that normal ?

Also, the (nerfed) Honeycomb was defended only by a Sentinel (and a Maintenance Ship since there was a Native Elerium in another planet of the System), is that on purpose ? Or is there still a chance to get a Warden ?

I saw a few Abandoned Colonies on Asteroid Belts and Gas Giants, I think it's the first time I see that ?

On six adversaries, I had two Ettys and two Fulvers (also one Chato and one Trith³), shouldn't there be a parameter in random generation that forbids (or at least reduce the probability of) having twice the same starting specie in games with a low number of players ?

When I wiped out the first four adversaries, the two remaining had around 5 planets each while I had more than 50, but they still went fighting each other. Shouldn't there be an automatic gang-up of AI Players against the human after the first one is eliminated ? Right now that means that only the early game is a challenge and the rest is just the same but more tedious...

Except for one of them, none of the AI players built any Carrier. That helped me wipe out their fleet, but it's a bit weird since usually AI goes really heavy on carriers...

It's the second time I play Scylior and both time I had a Snowflake nest near my homeworld. Is that sheer luck or is there something to it ?

Late game I let any spawned monster mature on its nest as I need only the third stage, so it's a bit tedious to have to manually click on the fleet icon when on reach Large Snowflake and peruse through all the smaller ones until I find the right one. Why can't SitRep give its name in a clickable form like it does for ships ?

I had the "sitrep announces undetectable incoming ship" situation again, here are the requested save files (framasoft will delete them after 7 days, though):

https://covid19.framadrop.org/lufi/r/uU ... TPSUNEm6Y=
https://covid19.framadrop.org/lufi/r/Rq ... 1MqQOZOjc= https://covid19.framadrop.org/lufi/r/2 ... /kvlJhji8= https://covid19.framadrop.org/lufi/r/X ... /P6otquXY=

¹ Which means the Scyliors take it bad by having a smaller Homeworld.

² And Ugmor natives that I picked quite late in the game (by the way, their High-Tech Natives planet had only one beaker instead of two, is that normal ?)

³ Which means that I understand now why the Tree of Life is useful.
Last edited by LienRag on Sun May 31, 2020 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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LienRag
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Re: Trying last version

#6 Post by LienRag »

UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:00 am This is easy enough to see in the galaxy map, look for your supply lines that are the wrong color.
No it isn't. And I know, I did it a lot of time. Sometimes yes the broken supply lines are easy to spot, very often they are not. And it's very tedious to have to go multiple times over the galaxy map in hope I'll finally be able to spot them.

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Re: Trying last version

#7 Post by UrshMost »

LienRag wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:40 pm
UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:00 am This is easy enough to see in the galaxy map, look for your supply lines that are the wrong color.
No it isn't. And I know, I did it a lot of time. Sometimes yes the broken supply lines are easy to spot, very often they are not. And it's very tedious to have to go multiple times over the galaxy map in hope I'll finally be able to spot them.
Can you post a screenshot of a problematic map the next time you run into it?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Trying last version

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:20 am- There is still no telling of WHERE exactly the overflow of production points happens from the Production menu (which only says if it's in the current system or not). Making the red number clickable (and leading to the biggest overflowing system) would be really useful.
You can click the ! indicator at the top of the screen to go to a system with unused production.
unused production indicator
unused production indicator
Unused Production Indicator.png (649.99 KiB) Viewed 6119 times

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Re: Trying last version

#9 Post by drkosy »

You can click the ! indicator at the top of the screen to go to a system with unused production.
Thanks for that hint. I am rather new to the game and didn't know that. Sometimes it is rather hard to find the system which is out of supply lines. E.g. I had one system populated with colonies from me and form another race. The build an satellite witch killed the supply line for this system. But thus it was directly centered in my empire, I didn't recongnize this for a long time...

The good point is: The wasted production will go into stockpile and isn't lost.
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Re: Trying last version

#10 Post by defaultuser »

While unused will go to stockpile, I find that it's usually not the best technique. That's especially true early on when your stockpile use for most species is very limited. There's generally something you should be building.

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Re: Trying last version

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

defaultuser wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:13 pm While unused will go to stockpile, I find that it's usually not the best technique. That's especially true early on when your stockpile use for most species is very limited. There's generally something you should be building.
Yes, that is why this is advanced usage. But sometimes it helps to delay PP usage by a turn or so (e.g. until your scouting gives new intel or a tech gets finished). And as drkosy said, if you by mistake did not spend all PP, it is not completely wasted.
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