New Fuel Settings?

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UrshMost
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New Fuel Settings?

#1 Post by UrshMost » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:10 am

Build 2019-7-30 win32

The self grav hulls now have a fuel rating of 1.5, and fuel efficiency of 60% which gives them a max fuel value of .9. This somehow allows them to travel within your supply range, but as soon as they leave it they are stranded.

Sitting at .9 fuel, each turn they generate a message stating that they now have sufficient fuel to travel again, but because its capped at .9, they really don't.

If this is an intended design feature, I don't really like it. What kind of ship would ever be designed such that it did not carry enough fuel to move it?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:53 am

A github issue about this would be appropriate.

UrshMost
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#3 Post by UrshMost » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:57 am

Windows 7 64bit, AMD 8 Core, 8 GB
Nvidia GTX 670 @ 3240x1920
FreeOrion Build: Latest Windows Test Build

Ophiuchus
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#4 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:22 am

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#5 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:23 am

UrshMost wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:10 am
If this is an intended design feature, I don't really like it. What kind of ship would ever be designed such that it did not carry enough fuel to move it?
It has enough fuel to go along supply lines and do a single jump to advance into enemy space.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Oberlus
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#6 Post by Oberlus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:08 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:23 am
It has enough fuel to go along supply lines and do a single jump to advance into enemy space.
Shouldn't it be able to come back next turn? And that means minimum 1 supply.
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#7 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:28 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:08 am
Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:23 am
It has enough fuel to go along supply lines and do a single jump to advance into enemy space.
Shouldn't it be able to come back next turn? And that means minimum 1 supply.
I guess you mean minimum 1 fuel. That is a possibility. If we do not want people to be able to shoot into their foot we probably should do this.

That probably also means a balancing pass over the hulls removing internal slots in exchange for base fuel.

Personally I would be fine to keep it like it is. In the old system it was also possible to strand your ships - the concept did not change.
With right tech (energy metabolism) or species (good fuel) self grav hulls have more than 1 fuel and can return.

Another question raised in the issue was about dot fuel. There are two topics there:
  • 0.x maximum fuel equates to zero fuel and could reasonably set to zero to reflect this as geoff suggested
  • y.x fuel for y>=1 has some uses. E.g. 2.9 maximum fuel means you can jump two out of supply and return to your supply to your supply network if you wait a single turn (2.8 usually would imply waiting two turns). I would like to get play testing feedback on this.
I will give some explanations for the design and put up a poll I guess for collecting the feelings in one or two cycles.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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JonCST
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#8 Post by JonCST » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:25 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:23 am
UrshMost wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:10 am
If this is an intended design feature, I don't really like it. What kind of ship would ever be designed such that it did not carry enough fuel to move it?
It has enough fuel to go along supply lines and do a single jump to advance into enemy space.
What if the system you need to reach is two jumps out of supply? Across a system with no planets, for example?

Or is this an argument to keep the extra fuel parts? Because if an SGH can't even jump a 1-spacelane gap, that would make a fuel tank pretty much mandatory.

If we're eliminating fuel tanks, and if SGH has max fuel 0.9, perhaps the same tech which enables development of Titanic Hull could bump the SGH hull fuel capacity? I'd research it for that, even if i don't plan to build any TH ships. Or, does that mean every SGH would need a ramscoop? I think i remember those were supposed to stay, and i've never used one before due to the research cost for minimal benefit.

Side note: in traditional SF (and maybe in Real Physics, but that's still theoretical), ramscoops were able to sustain ship travel without pause. 0.1 unit/turn clearly doesn't. Unlimited fuel for little research might be unbalancing, but 0.1 seems miserly for the investment currently required. My opinion.

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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#9 Post by JonCST » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:47 pm

Also on ramscoops (maybe straying off topic?), TV tropes on Ram Scoops: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RamScoop

Could maybe increase fuel generated, at a substantial speed penalty due to drag from the scoop.

Should maybe transfer this back to the Ramscoop thread viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8735&p=68193&hilit ... oop#p68130?

Jon

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Oberlus
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#10 Post by Oberlus » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:52 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:28 pm
you mean minimum 1 fuel
Yes :mrgreen:
In the old system it was also possible to strand your ships - the concept did not change.
Well, any ship could refuel by just waitin. The concept has changed in that now some ships can't refuel outside supply, and that the only way to move such ships again is by extending your supply reach. At least until you get certain tech to increase their fuel.

I would make it so that any hull has at least 1 fuel when researched, considering the fuel boosts that can get from techs that unlock the hull.

Re. dot fuel, I don't really like it.
The 2.9 fuel is just fuel 3 with one turn delay, and after that exactly the same (to get to next jump both will require to wait 10 more turns, or whatever).
I don't think that kind of fine-graining is relevant for gameplay and certainly not fun, plus requires extra attention on your ships.
So I would go for 0, 1, 2, 3...
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#11 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:19 pm

UrshMost wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:10 am
What kind of ship would ever be designed such that it did not carry enough fuel to move it?
A vessel where the fuel would be to massive to be carried around or where you rely on external power by principle. Paragliders would be an example. Theoretical space elevator floaters. Rockets are also kind of similar. But this is only a realism argument. The change was introduced to make fuel count more and make supply lines count more at the same time.
Oberlus wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:52 pm
Well, any ship could refuel by just waitin. The concept has changed in that now some ships can't refuel outside supply, and that the only way to move such ships again is by extending your supply reach. At least until you get certain tech to increase their fuel.

I would make it so that any hull has at least 1 fuel when researched, considering the fuel boosts that can get from techs that unlock the hull.
I was thinking of exchange rate of a single internal slot for 2 base fuel - that would translate for the bad efficiency hulls to 0.6 extra fuel in exchange.
But for self-grav ships it would be rather crippling to remove one of the two internal slots. How about also exchange a single external slot for 1 base fuel (so 0.3).
So self-grav would have 1 core, 2 internal, 5 external slots and 1.2 max fuel (probably floor rounded to 1 fuel).

Logistics facilitator also has 0.9 fuel. That also has only two internal slots so i would exchange one
external which would result in 1 core, 2 internal, 6 external and 1.2 max fuel.

Heavy asteroid has 0.6 fuel. I would exchange an internal slot, so: 2 internal, 6 external, 1.2 max fuel.

Other ships all have at least 1 max fuel.

Having no ships with max fuel also would "solve" the wrong message as the event would not occur anymore.

Also another big issue is probably is that fuel efficiency is not currently part of the description of the ship hulls. So while you would
Is there an automatic way to add fitting fuel efficiency descriptions? Like rendering descriptions for all tags?

Also, is there a way to change the description of the fuel tank using the current fuel tech info?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#12 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:14 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:19 pm
Is there an automatic way to add fitting fuel efficiency descriptions? Like rendering descriptions for all tags?

Also, is there a way to change the description of the fuel tank using the current fuel tech info?
II think the only solution now is to add multiple lines to the description to explain different scenarios about how a part's fuel capacity could influence a ship's fuel capacity.

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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#13 Post by The Silent One » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:37 pm

I think the small generic hull benefits too much from this. Scouts now have 8 jumps. Nerf?
Edit: also, 1.5 effective fuel cripples the Robohull. Imho it should at least have 2 fuel units.
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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#14 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 pm

The Silent One wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:37 pm
I think the small generic hull benefits too much from this. Scouts now have 8 jumps. Nerf?
Yes this is a big difference to the previous way. But is a huge scout jump range bad for gameplay?

On crowded maps it does not make a difference. On large maps it allows for more strategic planning.

It maybe even make sense to build small hull war ships for hunting and perimeter control.

The introduced changes are big because nobody could feel a difference in fuel in gameplay. Doubling the range is of course arbitrary - It could also be e.g. 6 jumps.
The Silent One wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:37 pm
Edit: also, 1.5 effective fuel cripples the Robohull. Imho it should at least have 2 fuel units.
I guess you mean crippling for attacking in enemy space (one-way flight)
Would exchanging an external slot for 2 fuel (so 3.5 fuel) make sense to you?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: New Fuel Settings?

#15 Post by Oberlus » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:08 am

The Silent One wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:37 pm
Scouts now have 8 jumps. Nerf?
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 pm
is a huge scout jump range bad for gameplay?
In small maps it means you'll know the whole map very fast, so the exploration part of the game ends quite soon. Some could see that as bad.

The reverse question, is it bad for gameplay to have scouts with 5 or 6 fuel?

It maybe even make sense to build small hull war ships for hunting and perimeter control.
4 hops away from your perimeter (and back) is quite a perimeter control.

The introduced changes are big because nobody could feel a difference in fuel in gameplay.
Hehe... Or because no body (aside from you) tested it? Sorry for that (in what regards to me).

Maybe using a factor of 1.5 instead of 2 would be better? 66%, 100%, 150%, 225%
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