fr_stringtable

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Ouaz
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Re: fr_stringtable

#181 Post by Ouaz » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:29 pm

Hi, I don't understand the last commit made by Cjkjvfnby in the stringtables folder (here).

It removes a lot of strings in the fr file (4900!), and makes very difficult to compare with en.txt when it comes to update fr.txt by adding the new strings (line numbers are different now), and very unconvenient to do the translation side-by-side (I use the latest en.txt to check the untranslated strings in fr.txt, in order to not have obsolete values).

Thanks for the answer. :wink:
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Dilvish
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Re: fr_stringtable

#182 Post by Dilvish » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:05 pm

Ouaz wrote:It removes a lot of strings in the fr file (4900!), and makes very difficult to compare with en.txt when it comes to update fr.txt by adding the new strings (line numbers are different now), and very unconvenient to do the translation side-by-side (I use the latest en.txt to check the untranslated strings in fr.txt, in order to not have obsolete values).
Could you clarify a bit? As stated in the commit message, the purpose was
(non EN) stringtable cleanup & compliance with en.txt (automated via a python script):
removed keys present in translation but removed form en.txt
removed keys present in translation with value exactly matching en.txt value
sorted keys in same order as in en.txt
added comments form en.txt
You say it removed strings from the file, but were they not ones that had been removed from en.txt or that were untranslated? If wrongly removed, could you give specific examples?

From your last comments it sounds like you might have been preferring to leave in untranslated entries from en.txt, but we've had some discussion of that and reached a consensus on what the best practice is here and it's referenced in the translation guide Cj put together. You indicate you would check manually for untranslated entries that had changed, but as noted in the first thread I linked, that approach has the disadvantage that changes to en.txt have to wait on a translator even if they were for keys that had not been translated to begin with. If, after reviewing that discussion I link to, you feel the need to discuss it some more I think that Cj's guide thread would probably be the best place to do that.
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Re: fr_stringtable

#183 Post by Cjkjvfnby » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:17 pm

Ouaz wrote:Hi, I don't understand the last commit made by Cjkjvfnby in the stringtables folder (here).

It removes a lot of strings in the fr file (4900!), and makes very difficult to compare with en.txt when it comes to update fr.txt by adding the new strings (line numbers are different now), and very unconvenient to do the translation side-by-side (I use the latest en.txt to check the untranslated strings in fr.txt, in order to not have obsolete values).

Thanks for the answer. :wink:
I remove all text that are same as english. It is a big chance what someone will translate outdated text.

You can use this file for side by side translation. https://github.com/Cjkjvfnby/freeorion/ ... ile_fr.txt
After you finish please send it to me I will make a patch from it.

It will be more easy if you make github account and start to use it.

PS. If you remove all outdated english translation from current fr.txt before starting new it will be great.
PS. If you have conflict with you current progress and my patch send it to me I will fix it.
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Re: fr_stringtable

#184 Post by Ouaz » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Dilvish wrote: Could you clarify a bit? You say it removed strings from the file, but were they not ones that had been removed from en.txt or that were untranslated? If wrongly removed, could you give specific examples?
Yes, there is a problem with removing the untranslated strings in the fr file, because the fr translation is currently a work in progress.

For example, the description of Microgravity Industry has been removed in the fr file, not because it can be used directly from the en file, but because it was not yet translated:

On the left, the last fr file on the repository (April, 3rd, 2015), on the right, my "work-in-progress" fr translation file.
removed_strings_example.PNG
removed_strings_example.PNG (23.57 KiB) Viewed 2854 times
It's the same for all the strings not yet translated and/or in which the french word is the same than in english (ex: "empire" in english is "empire" in french).
So, it makes the fr file very unconvenient to manage.

Why? Because this is how I manage to keep the fr file up-to-date and how I progress with the translation:

*To keep the fr file up-to-date*

First, I always save locally the last en file I used as reference (before on SF, I noted the revision number, now on Github, I note the date).
When some modifications are made to en.txt on the repository, I save locally the new latest en file to date (I check every week or two). Then, I compare the two files with Meld:
en_comparison.PNG
en_comparison.PNG (18.42 KiB) Viewed 2854 times
As the fr file has exactly the same structure than the en file (the same number of lines), I just need to copy the new strings in the fr file at the same place.
Here, the "Cultural Library" recently added on line 8636 to 8645. Easy and quick.
Same process for removed or modified strings.

*To translate and/or proofreading and avoid obsolete values (keys and strings)*

When I started to translate FO in french, I started from scratch.
I always use the latest en file as reference, I don't translate directly the strings that are in the fr file without checking the original english lines one by one (strings and keys).
That's why I use a side-by-side translation:
side_by_side_translation.PNG
side_by_side_translation.PNG (81.7 KiB) Viewed 2854 times
So far I did this from line 1 to 7360 (half of the [TECH THEORIES] section) and checked the result in-game.
After that point, I just translated the main titles (item names, building names, etc.) -checked in-game too-, not the description stuff.

As the two files have exactly the same structure (14085 lines), it's very convenient to compare the translation with the original english sentences, and in the same time, to check if the keys and values are up-to-date.
Moreover, when I need to check or improve a string that I have already translated, CTRL+G + line number on the two files, and it's done.

Now, with the "cleaned" fr file, everything is broken and it's simply a mess to insert/remove/modify strings (line numbers are totally different now) and it's now very unconvenient to translate/check/improve side-by-side. :(

For example, almost all the ships design names have been removed from the FR file because I didn't translate them at first. I kept "Scout", but if I finally want to translate it by "Éclaireur" (that I won't, it's just an example),
I have to reimport again all the corresponding strings in the fr file, that have been removed in the purpose of "cleaning".

I don't know how it is for the other translators, but for me, it's simply not good at all. :cry:
I read Cjkjvfnby's translation guide, it's way too complicated for me. I understand the process though, it's good for the stringtables that are not regularly maintained, but for me who maintain the fr file weekly (and submit a big patch once a month), it makes everything far too complicated and unconvenient.

EDIT: sorry for the big images that stretch the page, I was lazy to reduce their sizes. :p
Last edited by Ouaz on Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fr_stringtable

#185 Post by Cjkjvfnby » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:19 pm

Ouaz wrote:Yes, there is a problem with removing the untranslated strings in the fr file, because the fr translation is currently a work in progress.
Translation will be in progress until game in development, new keys can be added any time. Don't wait too long before contributions.

Look like you have own system for version control. Merge my changes may be painfull for you. :(

In thread about translation I mentioned a file with full translation, is it ok for your style? (If you send me you current progress I will update it with your changes.)

You say files has equal lines but it is not true, files almost equal. This is repository condition before my patch
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... les/en.txt
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... les/en.txt

I work on simple tool for translation but not finished it yet.
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Re: fr_stringtable

#186 Post by Ouaz » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:45 pm

Cjkjvfnby wrote:Translation will be in progress until game in development, new keys can be added any time. Don't wait too long before contributions.
At first, I wanted to submit a patch each two weeks, but I prefered to submit a big patch once a month, in order to not overflow Vezzra with tiny patches! :) And I have more free time in a month to dedicate to FO translation than in a week.
Look like you have own system for version control. Merge my changes may be painfull for you. :(
It's more than painful, it's HELL. :lol:
In thread about translation I mentioned a file with full translation, is it ok for your style? (If you send me you current progress I will update it with your changes.)
I could use this full translation file, but then again, it breaks my process of side-by-side translation: the number of lines is different (as you removed all blank lines), and it's a pain to translate/check/improve with the en file side-by-side.

And one thing that I forgot to mention, is that when I translate, I check directly the result in-game (by using the Flush Stringtables button in Freeorion). Sometimes, I switch between the en file and the fr file directly in-game, to have a better understanding of the sentence context.
That's why it's important to me to have a strictly identical structure between the english and the fr files. Just a matter of jumping easily and quickly between the two files (line searches, line comparisons, etc.).
You say files has equal lines but it is not true, files almost equal.
I don't understand. Currently, my local fr file updated with the last changes you've made on en.txt (Apr 3, 2015) have the same number of lines:

en.txt: 14085 lines
my fr.txt: 14085 lines

That's one of the way I use to check if the two files are synced. ^^
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Re: fr_stringtable

#187 Post by MatGB » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:57 pm

For what it's worth, one of the reasons they gave me commit access was so I could take some of the pressure off Vezzra so he can do the other stuff that's beyond me. I already try to maintain the English stringtable but I'm still learning basic tricks, and can (hopefully, when I've got the hang of Git) start comitting other translations, I'll only do that for translations done by a native speaker of languages we don't have more senior devs that speak without checking, but it's definitely a plan.

Still trying to get GIT to work at a basic level on my machine though so...

Basically, I have no opinion on the best way to do translations because I only speak English, but as long as the repository version of the file only contains English that has to be there for backend purposes, I can trust you to do stuff. With Git, it appears to be very easy to commit very small changes (and apparently merge them later into a bigger commit?), so unless I'm very wrong there, I'm happy to do merge stuff in whenever I see a pull request with a decent explanation of changes.

Completely new collaboration system with new people on board, we'll need to work out the best systems for doing stuff and working together, but e were going to need to do that changing to Git anyway.

(basically, you guys work out between yourselves the best way of setting up a taskflow for translators, let me (or Vezzra) know when there's something that needs committing and I'll try to get it done ASAP)
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Re: fr_stringtable

#188 Post by Cjkjvfnby » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Ouaz wrote:
Cjkjvfnby wrote: In thread about translation I mentioned a file with full translation, is it ok for your style? (If you send me you current progress I will update it with your changes.)
I could use this full translation file, but then again, it breaks my process of side-by-side translation: the number of lines is different (as you removed all blank lines), and it's a pain to translate/check/improve.
It is not big trouble to make them to have exact number of lines. (Sent me you current progress and I will generate full file with exact line matching.) It will unblock you and give me some time to find good solution.

In case If you will remove all current english texts from translation file, then I will generate full file with uptodate english test and you will not need to open en.txt at all.
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Re: fr_stringtable

#189 Post by Ouaz » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:32 pm

Cjkjvfnby wrote:It is not big trouble to make them to have exact number of lines. (Sent me you current progress and I will generate full file with exact line matching.) It will unblock you and give me some time to find good solution.

In case If you will remove all current english texts from translation file, then I will generate full file with uptodate english test and you will not need to open en.txt at all.
Ok, let's try that but will it work?

By checking on the fly the difference between my local fr file and your full fr file, I notice some strange things:

- line 8313: there's two times the BLD_SUPER_TEST string (one with triple quotes, one without)

Code: Select all

BLD_SUPER_TEST
Super-Tester Takeover
BLD_SUPER_TEST_DESC
'''Switches the species of the planet to Super-Testers.  For Official Testing Purposes, or for cheating.'''
BLD_SUPER_TEST
Super-Tester Takeover
BLD_SUPER_TEST_DESC
Switches the species of the planet to Super-Testers. For Official Testing Purposes, or for cheating.
Just above, on line 8306, triple quotes have been added to an item name (Palais Impérial = Imperial Palace). Why? (there aren't in the en.txt)

Code: Select all

BLD_IMPERIAL_PALACE
'''Palais Impérial '''

BLD_IMPERIAL_PALACE_DESC
'''Augmente la porté des lignes d'[[encyclopedia SUPPLY_TITLE]] de 1, l'[[encyclopedia INFRASTRUCTURE_TITLE]] de 20, la [[encyclopedia DEFENSE_TITLE]] de 5 et l'[[encyclopedia TROOP_TITLE]] de 3. Sa place définit également la capitale de l'empire.

Représente le pouvoir et le prestige impérial et fonctionne comme un centre de contrôle des possessions de l'empire.''' 
Whatever, if you manage to give the same structure to your full file than my local fr file (en.txt and fr.txt = same number of lines and each line at the same place in the two files), I think it will be OK and we could work like this.

It's the only thing I need! :wink:

Here's my up-to-date fr file:
fr_trunk_latest.txt
(427.95 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
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Re: fr_stringtable

#190 Post by Cjkjvfnby » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:20 pm

Ouaz wrote:
Cjkjvfnby wrote:It is not big trouble to make them to have exact number of lines. (Sent me you current progress and I will generate full file with exact line matching.) It will unblock you and give me some time to find good solution.

In case If you will remove all current english texts from translation file, then I will generate full file with uptodate english test and you will not need to open en.txt at all.
Ok, let's try that but will it work?
Works for me.
By checking on the fly the difference between my local fr file and your full fr file, I notice some strange things:

- line 8313: there's two times the BLD_SUPER_TEST string (one with triple quotes, one without)

Code: Select all

BLD_SUPER_TEST
Super-Tester Takeover
BLD_SUPER_TEST_DESC
'''Switches the species of the planet to Super-Testers.  For Official Testing Purposes, or for cheating.'''
BLD_SUPER_TEST
Super-Tester Takeover
BLD_SUPER_TEST_DESC
Switches the species of the planet to Super-Testers. For Official Testing Purposes, or for cheating.
It is issue in my script, there was a space after closed quotes. Thank you for catching this.
Just above, on line 8306, triple quotes have been added to an item name (Palais Impérial = Imperial Palace). Why? (there aren't in the en.txt)

Code: Select all

BLD_IMPERIAL_PALACE
'''Palais Impérial '''
[/quote]I wrap this value in tripple quotes because it is ended with space. In most editors it is hard to notice space at the end.  This changes is not merged yet to master. https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/21

[quote]Whatever, if you manage to give the same structure to your full file than my local fr file (en.txt and fr.txt = same number of lines and each line at the same place in the two files), I think it will be OK and we could work like this.

It's the only thing I need!  :wink: 
[/quote]I made special branch for you. You must take both en.txt and full_file_fr.txt from it.  (This branch includes all current pull requests)
https://github.com/Cjkjvfnby/freeorion/tree/full_files_for_Quaz/default/stringtables
To download file, click on it, press RAW button, save as ...

[quote]Here's my up-to-date fr file:[/quote]
Can you check if I miss something?  https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/22/files
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Re: fr_stringtable

#191 Post by Vezzra » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:43 pm

Cjkjvfnby wrote:Can you check if I miss something? https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/22/files
@Ouaz: Did you already have the opportunitiy to look at this...?

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Re: fr_stringtable

#192 Post by Ouaz » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:27 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Cjkjvfnby wrote:Can you check if I miss something? https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/22/files
@Ouaz: Did you already have the opportunitiy to look at this...?
Yes, sorry, I'm a bit lost with the new submit system and the fr master file that now don't have the english strings. ^^

So, yes, everything's is OK (on par with en.txt from Apr 3, 2015 )
Cjkjvfnby wrote:
Just above, on line 8306, triple quotes have been added to an item name (Palais Impérial = Imperial Palace). Why? (there aren't in the en.txt)

Code: Select all

BLD_IMPERIAL_PALACE
'''Palais Impérial '''
[/quote]I wrap this value in tripple quotes because it is ended with space. [b]In most editors it is hard to notice space at the end[/b].  This changes is not merged yet to master. https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/21

[/quote]

In that case, this space at the end is a typo in the fr file (the space is not needed, and there isn't in the en.txt). 

I will clean all these unnecessary spaces in the fr file and I will send you the file next week.

[attachment=0]line_end_space.PNG[/attachment]

PS: my pseudo is [b]O[/b]uaz, not [b]Q[/b]uaz. :p
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Re: fr_stringtable

#193 Post by Ouaz » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:50 pm

Hello,

As I can no more submit patches to update the fr file in freeorion/master (because my work-in-progress fr file and the "cleaned" one in the freeorion repository are too much different now), I created an account on GitHub and pull a request on Cjkjvfnby fork, for the full_file_fr.txt

> https://github.com/Cjkjvfnby/freeorion/pull/3

So, if I understand well, Cjkjvfnby will accept the commit, then he will pull a new request to merge the fr file within freeorion/master, right?

Once it's done, I can delete my branch (patch-1) which contained the pull request, right?

Thanks for the answer!
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Re: fr_stringtable

#194 Post by Cjkjvfnby » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:53 pm

Ouaz wrote: As I can no more submit patches to update the fr file in freeorion/master (because my work-in-progress fr file and the "cleaned" one in the freeorion repository are too much different now), I created an account on GitHub and pull a request on Cjkjvfnby fork, for the full_file_fr.txt

> https://github.com/Cjkjvfnby/freeorion/pull/3



So, if I understand well, Cjkjvfnby will accept the commit, then he will pull a new request to merge the fr file within freeorion/master, right?
Yes. I move your changes to fr.txt and make pull request to core https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/27
Please leave some comments there that all fine. I think It will speedup process :)

You can delete both branches (one in fork and it copy in local repo)
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Re: fr_stringtable

#195 Post by Dilvish » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:48 pm

Since Ouaz is perhaps more likely to stay current on discussions here than attached to the Pull Request, I am bringing this comment here rather than at GitHub. I note that the PR still includes a number of untranslated entries, which I had thought we would not be committing to translation stringtables in the main repository. I was expecting that Cj would do an additional commit on his branch cleaning up such things before putting in the PR. Did you all (Cj and Ouaz) have a different plan? An example is
SHP_TRANSSPACE_DRIVE_DESC
+Even when spatial dimensions are skewed by relativistic effects, an object generally has constant space-time characteristics. By creating a device which alters the characteristics of space-time itself using quasi-relativistic effects, it would be possible to create a fast, stealthy method of propulsion.
At first I also thought that the above entry had a more significant problem which is not subject to a discretionary decision, in that the only change from current to new appears to be removal of the surrounding triple quotes, which at first glance had seemed wrong. I realize now that it is most likely fine, that it simply appeared to be a multiline entry in the GitHub diff viewer, but was actually a single line. I decided I should go ahead and comment though-- perhaps for lines above a certain length it would be best to go ahead and include the triple quotes to avoid any uncertainty about the entry being valid. That's just a thought I wanted to mention for consideration.
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