Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

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Ophiuchus
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Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Note sure this post is in the right category. We have no UI forum. I try to get feedback mostly from native speakers. There are two tasks: finding a better name for stockpile focus (increases stockpile meter capacity) and stockpile meter (capacity is added to use limit) name. And second if there is a better metaphor than "stockpile" e.g. "smuggling" instead .

Also note that the main reason for "Stockpile Use Limit" is that it is short enough to fit nicely into the production panel (and where we call it "Use Limit" - only eight characters). Most longer variants would not fit (e.g. I think "Withdrawal Limit" is too long) and we would have to use the less significant "Limit" in that panel.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:34 am The primary purpose of stockpile is to share some PP among supply groups, the secondary is to save some PP for later. "Some": an amount depending mostly on the stockpiling trait of the empire's population and also on the stockpiling techs and the share of planets set to that focus; will be small compared to the needs of a single common production item unless majority of population is good/great stockpilers or many stockpiling techs are researched and some planets are set to that focus...

The "Stockpile" meter on each planet should be called sth else, because it refers to the amount of stockpile extraction that this planet contributes to the imperial stockpile extraction limit, i.e. how much PP can be extracted from stockpile each turn (for one or more disconnected production projects).
It is counterintuitive that one planet focused to stockpile, with no local production (or just the focus-independent bonuses), is helping a far away planet to build its stuff. It's in fact focused to help (others) extraction.
Also hard to explain where is that stockpile storaged while not in use, how is it transported to where it is needed, and why can't you use it faster when used in the same place that generated/stockpiled it.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:23 pm I am just trying to think of renaming the stockpile would help clear up the confusion.
Currently we have a "Stockpiling" focus, which increases planet's meter "Stockpiling"/capacity, the global use limit would be "Imperial Smuggling Limit", the imperial stockpile would be the "Imperial Stash" into which you transfer production points and which you smuggle to the use site. You can disallow usage for a build item by "Disable drawing from Imperial Stockpile for this item".

E.g.
we could have a "Smuggling" focus, which increases planet's meter "Smuggling Capacity", the global use limit would be "Imperial Smuggling Limit", the imperial stockpile would be the "Imperial Stash" into which you transfer production points and which you smuggle to the use site. You can disallow usage for a build item by "Disallow Smuggling".

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:37 am
Oberlus wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:11 pm I guess it is a bit counter-intuitive that focusing on "stockpiling" (which means to store, right? Mind my English) is actually de-stockpiling.
How about some renaming? I can think of an improvement: things which increase the use limit enhance stockpile distribution:

In Top Panel:
Top Panel Headline: Imperial Stockpile --> Imperial Stockpile Service
Prod queue assignments label: Stockpile Use
Empire use meter label: Stockpile Use Limit
(Predicted) Empire meter label: (Next turn) Stockpile

Sidepanel:
Planet (Max) Meter Label: Stockpile --> (Max) Stockpile Distribution
Focus Label: Focus: Stockpile --> Stockpile Distribution
SPECIES XXX_Effect Label: SPECIES XXX Stockpiling --> SPECIES XXX Stockpile Distribution

Production Queue:
Empire meter label: Stockpiled Points
Empire use meter label:: Maximum Use
Prod queue assignments label: Stockpile Use

Encyclopedia:
Empire use meter label: Stockpile
Tech Predictive Stockpiling
Tech Generic Supplies
Tech Interstellar Entanglement Factory
Building Interstellar Entanglement Center
Tech Transcendent Design
Building Species InterDesign Academy
Tech Void Prediction

levels of stockpiling abilities -> levels of stockpile distribution abilitie
Geoff likes "Withdrawal Limit" instead of "Use Limit" for the meter. There should be a fitting focus name for that.

Also "Remote Production Focus" (?Remote Limit?), "Stockpile Distribution Focus" (?Distribution Limit?).
Maybe only change focus name and keep the Use Limit name or maybe get rid of the limit part e.g. "Distribution" could suffice?
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LienRag
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#2 Post by LienRag »

Good idea but I'm not sure that "smuggling" is coherent with the fluff used for the stockpiling techs...

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:49 am Good idea but I'm not sure that "smuggling" is coherent with the fluff used for the stockpiling techs...
If we change the metaphor all the fluff needs to be rewritten
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Our "stockpile" refers to both the empire's storage of unused PP (prior to this mechanic those PP were wasted/lost) and the empire's capacity to supply PP from that storage.

In-game purpose of the mechanic:
- Supply PP between disconnected supply groups -> enable distributed empires. Important. And enable not losing for good production of blockaded systems as well as supply of PP to blockaded planets).
- Reduce PP anti-waste micromanagement (just reduce because too much PP stockpiled is quite similar to wasted since it will take tens of turns to recover it and is therefore inefficient). Not so important.

The names used should more clearly indicate the main purpose, distributed PP use, and the best word I can think of (both in English and in Spanish) is smuggling (contrabando) and stash. It conveys well the idea of secretly (to the enemy) storage, transport and provide goods to blockaded planets, but it has that non-techy feeling (what if we are teleporting PP trough small stargates?), and a strong sense of illegality (and so counter-empire), that I'd wish to find out another name that better conveys the act of supplying at long range (without enemy blockades or illegality of any kind involved). Something like ubiquous (but restricted) supply. Ubiquous Supply capacity for the extraction meter? Ubiquous Logistics or Ubiquity for the focus?

Still, I'd be more than happy changing stockpile/stockpiling to stash/stashing and the extraction meter and planet focus to smuggling capacity and smuggling focus.


It makes little sense that storing PP in a planet does not let you use that PP quickly in that same planet (once the planet is reconnected to supply, it is easier to bring enormous amounts of goods from other star systems than from your own stockpile). Stashing, as in putting away and secretly into some sort of untangible and ubiquous storage, makes more sense for not being able to recover quickly what you stashed. It doesn't make sense that you can storage unrestricted, but antone wishing to play more realistically can play the game with stockpile input limits enabled (I never tested, not sure if it works or how exactly).

The techs could be fluffed with some of what we already have : prediction of needs for better/easier/proactive logistics (through the smuggler's transport network), interspecies and modular design/production (three techs up to here)... With some changes or additions to reflect and explain the more smuggling related concepts. Void prediction, lattest tech, could be changed to something about teleporting goods through small, planetary stargates (maybe through the Void if you like, so Void Teletransportation or something like that).

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#5 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am...the idea of secretly (to the enemy) storage, transport and provide goods to blockaded planets...
Stockpile distribution is not specifically about "blockades" or being hidden. Enemy ships can disrupt supply propagation, but it also applies to cases where the supply network just doesn't extend far enough. The actual "stockpiling" aspect, as in save PP to use later, also applies even in fully-connected supply networks. The naming should not emphasize, or even refer to, blockades or evading them secretly. There can be techs or other specific content that boosts stockpile extraction / distribution that has names related to "smuggling" or similar, but it doesn't work as a name for the basic functionality, or the general focus for boosting it.
Still, I'd be more than happy changing stockpile/stockpiling to stash/stashing
Other than being slightly shorter, I don't see an advantage to that change.
It makes little sense that storing PP in a planet does not let you use that PP quickly in that same planet...
It can be explain sensibly by reference to the ability to use it anywhere. It's not being stored in a warehouse on the same planet for quick access later; it's being somehow stored everywhere such that it can be used everywhere.
Stashing, as in putting away and secretly into some sort of untangible and ubiquous storage, makes more sense for not being able to recover quickly what you stashed.
"Stockpiling" can be interpreted the same way, I think...

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:56 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 amStashing, as in putting away and secretly into some sort of untangible and ubiquous storage, makes more sense for not being able to recover quickly what you stashed.
"Stockpiling" can be interpreted the same way, I think...
I was just trying to figure out how squirrel stashing behaviour is called-seems those stash/bury/cache nuts-because squirrels distribute their nuts to many places and reclaim those only piecewise.
I like "caching" best of these. It is as least as generic as stockpiling and there is no other form of cache in the game. Reclaiming PP from the production cache would still be limited by a use limit i guess-so no improvement on that side. Also it might cause confusion with network topics.
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

We could also have an industry glacier, freezing assets would add PP to it, the melting focus increases imperial heat and only that amount of industry ice gets liquefied into PP each turn.

The serious part of that idea is to remove the idea of a limit. Instead a natural process (the "heat") makes a certain amount of PP available from the stockpile (which is actually quite close to the actual mechanic - the extraction limit amount of PP will be automatically used). Similar to how we have no production limit, but industry makes a certain amount PP available each turn.
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#8 Post by Oberlus »

PP in the cloud :lol:

Caching and Retrieving (de-caching)?

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 am PP in the cloud :lol:

Caching and Retrieving (de-caching)?
Industry Cloud, upload PP, download PP, still no fitting term for helping/increasing downloads somewhere else... bandwidth focus(?)...
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:45 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 am PP in the cloud :lol:

Caching and Retrieving (de-caching)?
Industry Cloud, upload PP, download PP, still no fitting term for helping/increasing downloads somewhere else... bandwidth focus(?)...
What I see better for now is
- Imperial Cache. Pedia page explains for "Imperial Cache" explains first it is the imperial ubiquitous storage system for ubiquitous (supply-independent) distribution of PP, then it elaborates on the general mechanic and its purposes, with links to the relevant pedia pages.
- Imperial Retrieval meter/capacity/limit. The number of PP that can be recovered from the imperial cache each turn. The corresponding Pedia page elaborates on the techs and traits that increase it (links to each one).
- Planetary retrieval meter. The fraction of the imperial retrieval capacity contributed by this planet.
- Retrieval focus. Increases this planet's contribution to imperial retrieval capacity. The planet is focused into boosting the technologies and systems that enable the distributed/ubiquitous delivery of cached PP. Mention to linked techs that enhance retrieval focus effects (a subset of the techs and policies that affect retrieval meter).

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#11 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am In-game purpose of the mechanic:
- Supply PP between disconnected supply groups -> enable distributed empires. Important.
Indeed.
As I already wrote, I enjoyed playing Sly.
And apart from my personal tastes, adding a different play style is objectively better.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am In-game purpose of the mechanic:
And enable not losing for good production of blockaded systems as well as supply of PP to blockaded planets.
That is the problem. This goes against the strategic importance of connecting planets and the military tactic of wreaking havoc to the economic potential of enemy empires by disconnecting them.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am In-game purpose of the mechanic:
- Reduce PP anti-waste micromanagement (just reduce because too much PP stockpiled is quite similar to wasted since it will take tens of turns to recover it and is therefore inefficient). Not so important.
Indeed, not so important but still valuable.

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:11 pm - Planetary retrieval meter. The fraction of the imperial retrieval capacity contributed by this planet.
- Retrieval focus. Increases this planet's contribution to imperial retrieval capacity.
Those sound like they should help local retrieval - but definitely better than stockpiling.
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

If the limit metaphor stays I think something like distribution makes the most sense for the focus. Use limit could also be shown as (Maximum Stockpile) Distribution and use would be shown as Actual (Stockpile) Distribution. This would make it possible for the activity, the planetary and imperial meter to be named the same.

My main gripe is that the term distribution could be confused with statistical distribution. Could something synonym work like Dispensation?
Stockpile Dispensation Focus adds to Dispensation Meter contributing to Imperial Dispensation Meter...

Hm. Also reading about economic bandwidth right now - it seems this got termed in the context of cryptocurrencies. E.g. Bitcoin has serious problems in doing as many transactions as happens in traditional banking. The computing power to increase the number of transaction is distributed. So in some sense our stockpile models a crypto currency quite well. If we can fluff the link to industry production we would have a nice. If the asset would be computation/information/economy this would probably work. Also some physics related fluff could work here with information being matter and vice versa..

Starting with Cryptoeconomy you can put PP in your Imperial Vault; Crypto Focus (or Transaction Focus) increases Transaction Bandwidth, you can do Actual Transactions up to your Transaction Bandwidth in PP. If you want to move more PP from the Vault into industry projects than you are allowed to, your bandwidth is your bottleneck.
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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#14 Post by Oberlus »

Hmmm...

disseminate
1. To scatter or spread widely; distribute.

diffuse
1. To (cause to) spread or scatter widely.
2. [Physics] to spread out freely without restriction; disseminate.

disperse
1. To (cause to) separate and move in different directions; (cause to) become scattered.
2. To spread widely; disseminate.
3. To (cause to) vanish.

Diffused/Disperse/Disseminated supply for the main concept of ubiquitous supply?
Then (Diffused/Disperse) Cache for the meter of PPs in the the ubiquitous storage?
And Diffusion/Dispersion/Dissemination for the focus and planetary meter?
And Maximum/Used Disperse Supply for the imperial meters?

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Re: Better naming of stockpile extraction activity

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:23 pm ...
Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:56 am
Geoff, as a native speaker, do some of those terms work for you? (Any native speaker may chime in)
  • Industrial Diffusion Focus
  • Stockpile Dispension Focus
  • Stockpile Distribution Focus
  • Stockpile Liquidation Focus
  • Stockpile Withdrawal Focus
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