Getting ready for 0.4.4

[Dilvish]

question: should we change the 0.4.4 default AI aggression to, say, Typical? The other primary options that come to mind are changing it to Beginner as I think we did for 0.4.3, or else simply leaving it at Maniacal.

[MatGB]

Typical is probably best, not everyone DLing is going to be a beginner but a beginner can select that as an option.

[Vezzra]

You still have 12 hours to get that adjustment in (as of the time of this post).

Maybe also change the default galaxy shape to Irregular2? Elliptical isn't the most interesting shape IMO...

[Dilvish]

You still have 12 hours to get that adjustment in (as of the time of this post).

Done, r7428

Maybe also change the default galaxy shape to Irregular2? Elliptical isn't the most interesting shape IMO...

I like Irregular2 quite a bit as well, you did a very nice job with that. I like it, though, because it seems to make for a bit more complex game, I'm not entirely sure it would be the best default. While Irregular2 is appealing in a 'put your best foot forward' sense, the plain vanilla Elliptical has the advantage of being simpler for beginners to visualize and navigate. I suspect it is best to leave default at Elliptical, though I think either Irregular2 or Random are also decent contenders for default. Let's get more votes...

[MatGB]

Actually, for a beginner or new player to this specific game I think you want "wow" factor to an extent as well.

Spiral 2.

With enough systems, and 150 is about right, when explored with gas and starfields on it looks stunning, and just like a galaxy ought to look.

Caveat: when it's set and we're fairly sure, let's play through a couple games with the default settings to see whether it actualyl makes a good game(that's what we should do with a release candidate anyway, right?), and change that if the game itse;f isn't actually fun (FWIW, current default settings do make a good game, tried it last week).

[Dilvish]

Spiral 2. With enough systems, and 150 is about right, when explored with gas and starfields on it looks stunning, and just like a galaxy ought to look. Caveat: when it's set and we're fairly sure, let's play through a couple games with the default settings to see whether it actually makes a good game...

Spiral 2 does look great, and I nearly had written above why I considered and rejected it, I guess I should have done so.

When testing out the recent invasion nerfing of Beginner & Turtle AIs, I ran a number of moderator mode AI games with 100 Systems Spiral 2 and 4 AIs. Perhaps bumping it up to 150 systems would make a significant difference, but it seemed that at 100 the arms tended to get long and stringy. Surprisingly to me, Empires home systems were often out in the thin strands of the arms, I guess their length gave them a decent percentage of total stars. The AIs didn't seem to get stuck out there, but I was running those with zero monsters. It seemed like it would be a very bad way for a beginner to try playing, stuck out in some thin strand of stars with serious Supply issues and possibly being boxed in by Sentinels (or more likely simply by Sentries, still daunting for a beginning player). So beautiful, but a high risk start for a beginning player. That was part of the motivation to suggest Random.

[mileser]

I personally like being in spiral arms because it's easier to secure just 2 end points of an empire than multiple endpoints. However, it all depends on how close the big monsters are to each other in their choking off the empire.

[vincele]

It seemed like it would be a very bad way for a beginner to try playing, stuck out in some thin strand of stars with serious Supply issues and possibly being boxed in by Sentinels

Better stranded in a corner than dispersed as ash... OK, that won't be too funny to play, but if I had to choose for my real life...

[Dilvish]

And let me clarify, by 'reject' I simply meant I rejected proposing it myself. It has enough pro's that if there is otherwise a consensus for it I wouldn't vote against it.

[MatGB]

When testing out the recent invasion nerfing of Beginner & Turtle AIs, I ran a number of moderator mode AI games with 100 Systems Spiral 2 and 4 AIs. Perhaps bumping it up to 150 systems would make a significant difference, but it seemed that at 100 the arms tended to get long and stringy. Surprisingly to me, Empires home systems were often out in the thin strands of the arms, I guess their length gave them a decent percentage of total stars. The AIs didn't seem to get stuck out there, but I was running those with zero monsters. It seemed like it would be a very bad way for a beginner to try playing, stuck out in some thin strand of stars with serious Supply issues and possibly being boxed in by Sentinels (or more likely simply by Sentries, still daunting for a beginning player). So beautiful, but a high risk start for a beginning player. That was part of the motivation to suggest Random.

Random has the chance tob e worst, it can be any of the layouts.

But yes, there's a chance it'd be terrible, which is why I think we should have it for Spiral 2 then test it, you get the same layout, with some random changes like sentry/sentinel, each time, so if we test it a few times on the exact settings of release we can be sure it works, or not, with the 0 default seed. If it doesn't, either change the seed or go back to elliptical (which I personally dislike as it's a very dull lozenge that's very compact, I actually think learning to play on such a compact layout encourages certain bad strategies, like not prioritising detection, etc).

[Vezzra]

I like Irregular2 quite a bit as well, you did a very nice job with that.

Thanks!

I like it, though, because it seems to make for a bit more complex game, I'm not entirely sure it would be the best default. While Irregular2 is appealing in a 'put your best foot forward' sense, the plain vanilla Elliptical has the advantage of being simpler for beginners to visualize and navigate.

Ack, you've got a point here. Speaking of which, with beginners in mind, shouldn't we reduce default Monsters Frequency at least to "Low" then? Medium monsters can be quite a challenge in the early game, if you get some of the nastier kind starting near you...

I suspect it is best to leave default at Elliptical, though I think either Irregular2 or Random are also decent contenders for default. Let's get more votes...

Considering the discussion so far, I think it's best to leave it at Elliptical. Random can give you exotic shapes like Ring which isn't what I want a beginner to experience as his first FO game And Spiral2 maybe needs more testing to see if you don't wind up with difficult starting positions too often.

[MatGB]

I had been planning on testing all the layouts and then lobbying for spiral2 if I thought it was better but...

Of all the ones tested so far (not done ring or either irregular) with all other defaults the same, ellipsis, much as I hate to say it, is probably slightly better for a beginner than spiral2, and both are way better than all the others.

Elliptical's main problems are a) both nearby AIs are Chato and b) the first Chato colony is almost certainly going to be a world about 3 jumps from your homeworld, and right next to one of the two key interesections you need to leave. But, assuming you survive that, it's fine.

Spiral 2 is an "easier" start, there are some Hhohh nearby and the nearest AIs are further away, you're at the north of the central cluster and there are plenty of things to do before you're threatened, 2 drawbacks being two of the nearest AIs are Eaxaw, and the next nearest is Laenfa, which are horrible to go up against if you don't know what you're doing due to their stealth bonus.

Clusters, as expected, is horribly awfully bad (but it does give an Ancient Ruins right next to your homeworld) and you're right in the middle, only 2 AIs can fight each other without going through you.

If we want to give a new player an easy ride, Spiral2 is best of all that I've tested but the Laenfa could be a problem (not a major one, really, they're a distance away). If we want to give them a good taste of the game overall, Elliptical is probably the better choice.

And I say this with regret, as I HATE elliptical, it's too densely packed and you're on top of everything, I think it teaches bad strategy as well as you can get away with almost no detection tech and similar as distances are negligible.

[Vezzra]

Hm, that's going to be difficult... because with the change to empire species selection I'm going to implement today, the AI races you get most likely will change in RC2...

[Dilvish]

with beginners in mind, shouldn't we reduce default Monsters Frequency at least to "Low" then? Medium monsters can be quite a challenge in the early game, if you get some of the nastier kind starting near you...

Yes, I think you're right about that.

[Dilvish]

as I HATE elliptical, it's too densely packed and you're on top of everything

I agree about the packing. You know, Vezzra increased the galaxy width & height by 40% for the Irregular2 shape, the same seems like it would be good for elliptical also. Attached is a patch if you want to try that out.