Can a poor environment be terraformed?

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maxand
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Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#1 Post by maxand » Wed May 11, 2011 2:21 pm

Here's a typical terran-like (Gyisache) list of environments in v0.3.15 (from the species.txt file):

Code: Select all

environments = [
        type = Swamp        environment = Poor
        type = Toxic        environment = Hostile
        type = Inferno      environment = Hostile
        type = Radiated     environment = Hostile
        type = Barren       environment = Hostile
        type = Tundra       environment = Poor
        type = Desert       environment = Adequate
        type = Terran       environment = Good
        type = Ocean        environment = Adequate
        type = Asteroids    environment = Uninhabitable
        type = Gasgiant     environment = Uninhabitable
I discovered by trial and error that colony ships can only colonize a Terran type planet, rated as Good. However, the parameters Adequate and Poor imply that terraforming is possible (to enable colonization), though I haven't yet found how to do this. Is it possible in the current version?

(Added) I just found Terraforming and Remote Terraforming under Research -> Growth, so I guess that's how to do it. Will Remote Terraforming enable colonization then?

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#2 Post by Bigjoe5 » Wed May 11, 2011 3:44 pm

If you research Habitation Domes, you will be able to make outposts on uninhabitable worlds, which will allow you to use Remote Terraforming. Other techs in the Growth category allow you to directly colonize less habitable planets.
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#3 Post by maxand » Thu May 12, 2011 1:25 am

Thanks Bigjoe5. Looks like I have a lot of researching to do. :)

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OllyG
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#4 Post by OllyG » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:47 pm

I colonised a terran world when playing the Hhhoh (who like tundra).

I had habitation spheres technology and terraforming. In the production menu I could see terraforming as a building, but I couldn't build it. I tried selecting the terran planet, but no luck. I had built other buildings and ships in other systems. I can build a shipyard on the terran planet but not terraforming. Also the target population on the planet was 0.10, but the actual population was stable at 1.00.

'Buildings' such as terraforming are a strange idea. I think they should have a different name, such as 'projects'. If terraforming was built would it be a permanent change to the planet or would it be a building that needs maintaining? Maybe two technologies are possible here, with the permanent change being more advanced.

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#5 Post by Bigjoe5 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:42 am

OllyG wrote:I colonised a terran world when playing the Hhhoh (who like tundra).

I had habitation spheres technology and terraforming. In the production menu I could see terraforming as a building, but I couldn't build it. I tried selecting the terran planet, but no luck. I had built other buildings and ships in other systems. I can build a shipyard on the terran planet but not terraforming.
Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. I made the terraforming building when the only two species were Trith and Gyisache, with individual effects groups for each species so that the planet would be terraformed in the right direction. Since eleazar added more species, Terraforming won't work on the new species. The current effects system doesn't make it very easy to make terraforming work properly for lots of different species with different EPs.
'Buildings' such as terraforming are a strange idea. I think they should have a different name, such as 'projects'. If terraforming was built would it be a permanent change to the planet or would it be a building that needs maintaining? Maybe two technologies are possible here, with the permanent change being more advanced.
The "building" actually disappears the turn after it is built and the planet stays at the new environment until something else changes it.
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eleazar
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#6 Post by eleazar » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:47 am

OllyG wrote:'Buildings' such as terraforming are a strange idea. I think they should have a different name, such as 'projects'...
I agree that "building" often is a poorly fitting word. I tend to want to replace "building" with "project" in all instances, though "project" is sorta a vauge word.
Bigjoe5 wrote: I made the terraforming building when the only two species were Trith and Gyisache, with individual effects groups for each species so that the planet would be terraformed in the right direction. Since eleazar added more species, Terraforming won't work on the new species. The current effects system doesn't make it very easy to make terraforming work properly for lots of different species with different EPs.
Sorry about that. The endless cycle of building and breaking...

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#7 Post by OllyG » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:46 am

Ok Bigjoe5, should I play Trith and Gyisache when testing the game or is it only terraforming which is affected?

I would like to see Ships, Buildings & Projects as three different areas - if that is possible.

Also the buildings which effect the way the empire does things rather than being a physical building shouldn't be a building on a planet - for many reasons (including that in combat how could you destroy that kind of thing)

There should be somewhere where things are recorded - like basic autolabs, exobots etc. and maybe agreements with other empires which makes it clear that you have these advantages, but they are not a building on one of your colonies.

Also, I just started another game with Humans, then changed my mind and started again with Trith. The systems I started in were identical - except my home planet is now radiated rather than terran. I was under the impression that the galaxy was random - I did leave all the settings the same, but I expected from reading about v0.1, v0.2 and v0.3 roadmap documents that the types of planets were generated in each slot by random 1-100 number genaerations.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:15 am

OllyG wrote:Also, I just started another game with Humans, then changed my mind and started again with Trith. The systems I started in were identical - except my home planet is now radiated rather than terran. I was under the impression that the galaxy was random - I did leave all the settings the same, but I expected from reading about v0.1, v0.2 and v0.3 roadmap documents that the types of planets were generated in each slot by random 1-100 number genaerations.
Universe generation is "random" in the sense that practically unpredictable number sequences are used to decide what goes where, but the sequence of random numbers is always the same, so the same universe generation settings will always produce the same universe. This is intentional, as it makes testing much easier. If you want a different universe, add or remove a star.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#9 Post by eleazar » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:18 pm

OllyG wrote:Also the buildings which effect the way the empire does things rather than being a physical building shouldn't be a building on a planet - for many reasons (including that in combat how could you destroy that kind of thing)
An intangible, non-localized thing like that is already covered by researching a technology.
OllyG wrote:Also, I just started another game with Humans, then changed my mind and started again with Trith. The systems I started in were identical - except my home planet is now radiated rather than terran.
In addition to what Geoff said, your homeword will always be idea for your starting species.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#10 Post by Academician » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:48 pm

Currently (as of 3.16) Terraforming works for 1 species, the Trith.
(It also 'works' for the Gyisache but will result in Terran Worlds, not their EP, Swamp Worlds)
I intend to try to fix this but I would appreciate if someone could check my logic:

Species
EP (Terraform Logic)
--------------
SP_HUMAN
Terran (if [Desert Tundra Barren Radiated] +1, if [Swamp] > [Ocean], if [Ocean Toxic Inferno] -1)

SP_SCYLIOR
Ocean (if [Terran Desert Tundra Barren] +1, if [Swamp] > [Ocean], if [Toxic Inferno Radiated] -1)

SP_GYISACHE
Swamp (if [Terran Desert Tundra] +1, if [Ocean] > [Swamp], if [Barren Radiated Inferno Toxic] -1)

SP_CHATO
Toxic (if [Swamp Terran Desert] +1, if [Ocean] > [Swamp], if [Inferno Radiated Barren Tundra] -1)

SP_EGASSEM
Inferno (if [Toxic Swamp Terran] +1, if [Ocean] > [Swamp], if [Radiated Barren Tundra Desert] -1)

SP_TRITH
Radiated (if [Inferno Toxic Swamp] +1, if [Barren Tundra Desert Terran] -1, if [Ocean] > [Swamp]

SP_CRAY
Barren (if [Radiated Inferno Toxic Swamp] +1, if [Tundra Desert Terran Ocean] -1)

SP_HHHOH
Tundra (if [Barren Radiated Inferno Toxic] +1, if [Swamp] > [Ocean], if [Ocean Terran Desert] -1)

SP_EAXAW
Desert (if [Tundra Barren Radiated Inferno] +1, if [Swamp] > [Ocean], if [Terran Ocean Toxic] -1)

I'm not entirely sure the cut off for the world types is swamp/ocean or the direction it goes in, I tried to work it out from the existing terraform logic but might've got it wrong

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eleazar
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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#11 Post by eleazar » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:02 am

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
The wheel looks like this:
EP wheel.png
EP wheel.png (38.63 KiB) Viewed 6523 times
And planet suitability is supposed to follow this pattern for all species. The difference being which planet "Good" falls on.
EP suitability.png
EP suitability.png (15.86 KiB) Viewed 6523 times
I don't know if it is possible at this point, but hopefully we can get something working that knows how to move towards a species EP without treating it as a unique problem for each species.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#12 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:18 am

eleazar wrote:I don't know if it is possible at this point, but hopefully we can get something working that knows how to move towards a species EP without treating it as a unique problem for each species.
A function could be written to return the next better environment given a species and a starting environment.

Issues with this might arise if there could be species for which the environment qualities don't follow the current standard pattern, as you might get a "local maximum" where moving one step would make things worse, but two or more steps would make things better.

Anyway, if that's acceptable or not an issue due to species design, then there could be an effect that changes a planet's environment one steps towards the (nearest?) most-preferred environment for a particular species.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#13 Post by OllyG » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:43 pm

eleazar wrote:I don't know if it is possible at this point, but hopefully we can get something working that knows how to move towards a species EP without treating it as a unique problem for each species.
We rotate this chart so the favoured planet is on top:
EP%20wheel.png
EP%20wheel.png (38.63 KiB) Viewed 6496 times
We number the planets like so:
EP%20numbered.png
EP%20numbered.png (10.65 KiB) Viewed 6496 times
Edit - This picture doesn't seem to display, but it is simply nine circles with numbers on - using the code section below you can work out the numbers.

The preferences section in species.txt for each species is written as below (for example, terran-prefering Gyisache):

Code: Select all

planetcode = [
        type = Swamp        planetcode = 6
        type = Toxic        planetcode = 4
        type = Inferno      planetcode = 2
        type = Radiated     planetcode = 1
        type = Barren       planetcode = 3
        type = Tundra       planetcode = 5
        type = Desert       planetcode = 7
        type = Terran       planetcode = 9
        type = Ocean        planetcode = 8
When terraforming, the planetcode is looked up. e.g. a tundra planet returns 5
Two is added to this number. e.g. 5+2=7
The new number is looked up a the same list (where 9+ gives terran). e.g. 7 returns desert
The planet type is changed. e.g. changed to desert

The environmental preferences for all species can be(sorry I can't remember how to program):

Code: Select all

if planetcode = 0 environment = Uninhabitable
if planetcode = 1-4  environment = Hostile
if planetcode = 5-6  environment = Poor
if planetcode = 7-8  environment = Adequate
if planetcode = 9-10  environment = Good
if planetcode = 11 environment = Superb
If the second code section is adjusted there can be species which are more or less tolerant of environments different to their prefered. e.g if planetcode 1-8 sets environment to Hostile or even Uninhabitable then the species in question would only be able to live on their own prefered world type - but they could still terraform in the normal way.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#14 Post by eleazar » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:54 pm

I'm not at all a coder, but some thoughts:

* many/most species will probably have one of the 9 standard EPs.
* we may want flexibility to do other things on occasion.
* it would be nice if the planet types were less hard-coded, or at least avoiding making it more hard-coded

So perhaps define EP_STANDARD_TERRAN and so forth for each of the 9 standard EP in a separate file from the species. This would include information on which planets are "poor," "adequate", etc. and also which steps to take to terraform.

So unless we wanted to do something special and species specific, we could simply reference "EP_STANDARD_TERRAN" in the human species definition. Thus we get less duplication and fewer chanced for error.

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Re: Can a poor environment be terraformed?

#15 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:03 pm

* it would be nice if the planet types were less hard-coded, or at least avoiding making it more hard-coded
Having planet types, planet sizes, and star types defined in a text file instead of hard-coded is possible but would be a big job that I'm not keen on tackling in the short-term. I might get inspired to do it at some point, though.
So perhaps define EP_STANDARD_TERRAN and so forth for each of the 9 standard EP in a separate file from the species. This would include information on which planets are "poor," "adequate", etc. and also which steps to take to terraform.
The section of the species definition about environmental preferences is quite concise and self-contained; I don't think it's worth the effort to add a separate set of symbols and definitions just for that...

Code: Select all

    environments = [
        type = Swamp        environment = Adequate
        type = Toxic        environment = Poor
        type = Inferno      environment = Hostile
        type = Radiated     environment = Hostile
        type = Barren       environment = Hostile
        type = Tundra       environment = Hostile
        type = Desert       environment = Poor
        type = Terran       environment = Adequate
        type = Ocean        environment = Good
        type = Asteroids    environment = Uninhabitable
        type = Gasgiant     environment = Uninhabitable
    ]

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