Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

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LienRag
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#106 Post by LienRag »

I don't know if it can be related to the fact that I use the snap client (which AFAIK hasn't been updated) but I repeatedly had a bug where building a Translator made all productions below it the queue go silently to the void.

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#107 Post by Daybreak »

LienRag wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:18 pm I don't know if it can be related to the fact that I use the snap client (which AFAIK hasn't been updated) but I repeatedly had a bug where building a Translator made all productions below it the queue go silently to the void.
I built a few - running windows
no problems.

o01eg
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#108 Post by o01eg »

Restarted test game. Do snap package not ready yet?
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Ophiuchus
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#109 Post by Ophiuchus »

o01eg wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:08 am Restarted test game. Do snap package not ready yet?
oh, it is.. probably didnt announce it
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LienRag
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#110 Post by LienRag »

The problem solved itself, apparently.

o01eg
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#111 Post by o01eg »

Started the actual game!
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Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
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wobbly
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#112 Post by wobbly »

I've been seeing some ...interesting choices from multiple players over the last several games, so its time to play a game of hypotheticals. Lets say hypothetically you had a way to gain 5 "free" research points, just by doing nothing for several turns. Let's say the delay costs you 6 research points through lost colony research. Would that be a logical decision? Maybe it wouldn't be? Maybe it would be just a case of gamer OCD? Now I don't know the actual numbers, so I just made them up, but certainly it is worth considering whether a strategy makes sense or not.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#113 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:30 am Lets say hypothetically you had a way to gain 5 "free" research points, just by doing nothing for several turns. Let's say the delay costs you 6 research points through lost colony research. Would that be a logical decision?
well if i take your example literally, even if it is clearly not optimal for research output, 1RP does not make a difference (such a small difference that anything else is probably more important). so it depends. If not delaying costs you more real-life time, delaying may be a mature and logical decision. Hypothetically also timing could be more important (e.g. if one would get the 5RP earlier and unlock a tech one turn earlier). And even more important how the board changes with one option or the other. and people are stupid in many ways, that is defining human behavior. also the player might simply be role-playing the species affinities. or somebody simply did not analyze (so was not aware of the situation) and is following suboptimal heuristics (e.g. greedy strategy).

anyway. i think the current behavior of getting RP from exploration is rather a side-effect than intended behavior. I think one should be able to get the RP point if one did not get the RP point for the system, no matter if one passed by beforehand or not. i think there is not a good implementation for that currently though/has horrific implementations without better backend support. One such horrific implementation would be adding super-stealthed pseudo-buildings to track which empire explored which system. A half-horrific one would be to add on top of the current mechanic a special which gets used up first time the system gets visited/explored with the exploration policy enabled, so as long as other empires dont start milking "your" visited systems you still can get the RP.
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wobbly
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#114 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:20 pm anyway. i think the current behavior of getting RP from exploration is rather a side-effect than intended behavior. I think one should be able to get the RP point if one did not get the RP point for the system, no matter if one passed by beforehand or not. i think there is not a good implementation for that currently though/has horrific implementations without better backend support
Yeah this would be ideal. Outside of the question of whether people are self sabotaging or not, the current implementation is leading to a situation where people don't play naturally, due to the loses of potential research points.

This has been bugging me for a while, I just don't have any good ideas on a simple fix.

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Oberlus
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#115 Post by Oberlus »

People refraining from moving until Exploration is adopted is unnatural, as well as that visiting a system before Exploration makes it impossible to "explore" it later.

Something better but not perfect, getting the RP also when flyby, was suggested by Ophiuchus: https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... 70#p114070
But that won't fix the "I'll stay put until I adopt Exploration", because one can't get exploration RPs from systems already explored, which happens also when a ship flies by.

Maybe add another "state" for each system-empire: one is "visited" and another is "explored", and the second can be set only when Exploration is adopted an a ship stays put for a turn in that system (no meter issues like the ones commented in the linked thread: the ship gets the RP for a single turn, as currently).

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#116 Post by Daybreak »

Why fix it. Its their choice.

or simply give them a military slot from the beginning.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#117 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:51 am Why fix it. Its their choice.
The reasons already commented: it feels unnatural, forced. And I myself don't see anything appealing in staying put as an strategy, don't see the fun anywhere.
So let's not give in-game reasons to make unnatural choices.

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#118 Post by Daybreak »

unatural forced to who.

If they make a choice, because they feel they are better off, who are we to dictate to them.

Do we stop people parking scouts in meteor storms because they should be exploring?

We should not keep curbing choice because we feel its wrong.

As it is there game has too many morals in it already.

wobbly
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#119 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:50 am As it is there game has too many morals in it already.
Not sure what bizarre world you live in, where mechanical flaws, are morals.

Daybreak
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#120 Post by Daybreak »

wobbly wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:56 am Not sure what bizarre world you live in, where mechanical flaws, are morals.
Are we all talking about the same thing?

a. If I decide to wait until I have a military slot, and Exploration, before exploring so I get extra RP, how is that a mechanical flaw. Its a decision.

b. If we are talking about that we already have a military slot, and Exploration but have to stop at a system, instead of just flying over it, then that could be said to be a mechaincal flaw.

My morals comment was based on other aspects of the game, and did not feel in relation to a. above that we should dictate someones playing style.

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