Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

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Oberlus
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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#391 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:46 am Hi Lienrag - can you clarify what that means, and your plans?
He uses Snap, in Linux, to install FreeOrion (instead of compiling himself). Snap system has its own quirks and issues regarding channels and updates, like disappearing if the maintainer doesn't do this or the user doesn't do that after some time. I don't really know because I refrain from using Snap myself.
So LR changed his machine for whatever reason and is having trouble installing FO, or the channel for the slow game version got old and dissapeared on him because Ophi didn't prevent it however should be done, or something else.
Now, presumably, LR will wait until Ophiuchus fixes it, and meanwhile we will be waiting too.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#392 Post by Daybreak »

Thanks Oberlus for the clear explanation

The game is set at auto turn every 48 hours, which allows for thesr problems.

Although next game I feel should be set at 24 hours. 12 hours may be asking too much :D

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#393 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:30 am Although next game I feel should be set at 24 hours. 12 hours may be asking too much :D
Game timer used to be 24hrs. It was upped to 48hrs in a multiplayer game which had not enough interested players to occur.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#394 Post by Oberlus »

Also, it's relatively frequent that someone that usually conects daily cannot connect for a couple of days, then ask o01eg to pause the game. With 48h timer it's less work for o01eg.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#395 Post by wobbly »

Also. Gah, LR - learn to compile, or sort this out in advance. Not the 1st time... (Also not the 2nd time)

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#396 Post by wobbly »

tldr: give your colonies and ships to o01eg and concede or sort your shit out.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#397 Post by Daybreak »

Come on guys - we dont know whats happening in Lienrags life, but we are willing to give Endhu a whole week at 1 turn a day.

If he does not want to give anyone delegation, thats up to him. You have 24 hour timer for a reason.

It has onely been about 3-4 days

Let Lienrag at least try and fix it first.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#398 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:34 pm Come on guys - we dont know whats happening in Lienrags life, but we are willing to give Endhu a whole week at 1 turn a day.

If he does not want to give anyone delegation, thats up to him. You have 24 hour timer for a reason.

It has onely been about 3-4 days

Let Lienrag at least try and fix it first.
Shrug. My own beef with Lienrag is multi-faceted and he can step up to the plate and I'll stop it at any time.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#399 Post by Oberlus »

I feel compelled to butt in in the last argument in the game lobby.

Guys, I think we might be taking this too seriously.

I honestly think that wobbly did nothing wrong when he tried to ally others against the (at the time) most successful empire, mine, and then change his mind when things went bad for him.
Be sure of this: that is exactly what any of you would do in that situation. This is a only-1-can-win game with diplomacy enabled, so it is expected that players break the alliances they form, and that players get more jealous about securing their own growth over their (temporal) allies.

IIRC, after W and DB had their private contacts about me, W got into trouble fighting LR. I offered him my support because I thought it was better for me to not let LR get strong. Then I tried to secure a non-aggression pact with DB and Endhu so that I could leave my space undefended. After an excessively long interchange of PMs, mostly with DB, it didn't work out. It was my subjective perception that DB basically made me waste my time waiting for a pact that would never come, while he was conceling information from me and preparing his own pacts against me*. During that undfruitful interchage of PM, DB told me that he didn't trust W because W had proposed DB that pact against me but then W informed me.

Daybreak, I assume you expected the pact to be secret, and maybe even that W would never accept my support just because he had approached you first?
If that is the case, it is unreasonable, plus it pisses me off.
Honestly, who is more honest? the one that makes hidden pacts to make unsurmontable surprise attacks or the one that goes up front?
For your information, in our private negotiations, the one that went up front was me. And the one that keeps information for himself and probed everyone for the best offer before accepting a pact was you.
So, given that it is so OK for you to speak out loud about the honesty of others, let me tell you this: your actions showed me you are not trustworthy.


But there is more. Only now, after reading the chats between DB and W, I realize that W also had more reasons to ask for my support: his intention to ally DB against me was also mediated by LR entering into that alliance (W, seriously? WTF OMG LOL, we'll have to talk about this...), and since LR didn't want to, W had a good amount of reasons to ally me (unless DB had helped W out, which seemingly didn't happen). So, Daybreak, when you say "(W was) at the same time boasting it to Oberlus", you are wrong. It wasn't at the same time, W first tried the alliance with you and LR, and he accepted my offer only after that failed .
basically after offering all that you told Oberlus you were mucking around with our minds.
You know I can say exactly the same about you, do you?

Also, DB, if you are calling someone by their nick and saying they are dishonest, you are insulting them. In this last exchange between you and W, he told you he doesn't like to be called dishonest and that he is not happy with the situation in a personal level (so clearly speaking out of game), then you say:
maybe i should have said trusted in game - more fair, and ok for this game, not outside game.
Maybe?
Or maybe you could have said nothing at all. But let me tell you that "maybe" doesn't help.

And after some more exchanges in which W's personal disconfort is made literally evident, you add this:
f8unny now i think your outrage is a little false
So calling him again a dishonest person, uh?
Dude, I have few social skills, but yours are not much better LOL.
you ae probably very trust worthy outside the game.
Probably?
Why you have to speak again about the honesty of W in real life? And why you have to say it in a way that clearly states that W might not be an honest person?
If you think it makes sense to apologize, do it in a plain and direct way.
If you think you did nothing wrong and you don't want to be conciliatory, you can just drop it.
Trying to justify your actions, trying to make the insulted person understand why you insulted the person or why your insult is limited to this or that context, is not what will get you mutual understanding.


So, guys, let us try and make a reset. We could start from these agreeable points:

- Diplomacy with backstabbing is complicated and risky and emotionally involving. In that context, It's normal that players get mad at other players for what they do in game.
- The more we speak in PMs, the more diplomatic mistakes we can commit. That's why no one ever will have a beef with o01eg, or why no one is wary about Endhu in this game, while I am a fucking demon despite trying to be 100% honest and reasonable in my negotiations (yes, DB, I really think I was fair in what I offered you in our negotiations, utterly fair; we agree to disagree).
- You all can concede now because I am about to finish my megafleet of solar hulls with neverending flows of troopers, Fremen style, so you better start thinking on what you learnt during this game and hope to be in my team next game 8)

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#400 Post by wobbly »

An apology is unnecessary. An end to accuations of untrustworthisness and mind games is sufficient.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#401 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:03 am I feel compelled to butt in in the last argument in the game lobby.

Guys, I think we might be taking this too seriously.

I honestly think that wobbly did nothing wrong when he tried to ally others against the (at the time) most successful empire, mine, and then change his mind when things went bad for him.
Be sure of this: that is exactly what any of you would do in that situation. This is a only-1-can-win game with diplomacy enabled, so it is expected that players break the alliances they form, and that players get more jealous about securing their own growth over their (temporal) allies.

IIRC, after W and DB had their private contacts about me, W got into trouble fighting LR. I offered him my support because I thought it was better for me to not let LR get strong. Then I tried to secure a non-aggression pact with DB and Endhu so that I could leave my space undefended. After an excessively long interchange of PMs, mostly with DB, it didn't work out. It was my subjective perception that DB basically made me waste my time waiting for a pact that would never come, while he was conceling information from me and preparing his own pacts against me*. During that undfruitful interchage of PM, DB told me that he didn't trust W because W had proposed DB that pact against me but then W informed me.

Daybreak, I assume you expected the pact to be secret, and maybe even that W would never accept my support just because he had approached you first?
If that is the case, it is unreasonable, plus it pisses me off.
Honestly, who is more honest? the one that makes hidden pacts to make unsurmontable surprise attacks or the one that goes up front?
For your information, in our private negotiations, the one that went up front was me. And the one that keeps information for himself and probed everyone for the best offer before accepting a pact was you.
So, given that it is so OK for you to speak out loud about the honesty of others, let me tell you this: your actions showed me you are not trustworthy.


But there is more. Only now, after reading the chats between DB and W, I realize that W also had more reasons to ask for my support: his intention to ally DB against me was also mediated by LR entering into that alliance (W, seriously? WTF OMG LOL, we'll have to talk about this...), and since LR didn't want to, W had a good amount of reasons to ally me (unless DB had helped W out, which seemingly didn't happen). So, Daybreak, when you say "(W was) at the same time boasting it to Oberlus", you are wrong. It wasn't at the same time, W first tried the alliance with you and LR, and he accepted my offer only after that failed .
basically after offering all that you told Oberlus you were mucking around with our minds.
You know I can say exactly the same about you, do you?

Also, DB, if you are calling someone by their nick and saying they are dishonest, you are insulting them. In this last exchange between you and W, he told you he doesn't like to be called dishonest and that he is not happy with the situation in a personal level (so clearly speaking out of game), then you say:
maybe i should have said trusted in game - more fair, and ok for this game, not outside game.
Maybe?
Or maybe you could have said nothing at all. But let me tell you that "maybe" doesn't help.

And after some more exchanges in which W's personal disconfort is made literally evident, you add this:
f8unny now i think your outrage is a little false
So calling him again a dishonest person, uh?
Dude, I have few social skills, but yours are not much better LOL.
OMG, way to blow it all up.
Life is too short to allow someone else to have control over your emotions.

1) So Wobbly basically makes an offer - not to be entered straight into away, but nearby future
2) Several days later Oberlsu mentions the offer to me - but this is important - Oberlus states that Wobbly is mucking around, seeing what would happen

SO
a) I think I cant trust anything Wobbly says to me ingame
b) I think Wobbly is probably a funny bugger that likes to have fun.

SO being someone that hardly ever gets angry myself and likes to have fun, I think Wobbly's outrage is him being funny - I mean ffs this is a game.

Then I realised that Wobbly actually may have been really upset, so I basically said I am talking about in-game

Wobbly - I do apologise.

Now if lol, you turn around and tell me you got me! I will be pissed :)
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:03 am
you ae probably very trust worthy outside the game.
Probably?
Why you have to speak again about the honesty of W in real life? And why you have to say it in a way that clearly states that W might not be an honest person?
If you think it makes sense to apologize, do it in a plain and direct way.
If you think you did nothing wrong and you don't want to be conciliatory, you can just drop it.
Trying to justify your actions, trying to make the insulted person understand why you insulted the person or why your insult is limited to this or that context, is not what will get you mutual understanding.
Drop it - You just wrote a brick about it.

Lol "Probably" because I don't know him,- simply as that, don't blow it up. lol if I had said he was trust worthy, it would be a complete lie as I have no idea. In fact, do I think he is trustworthy - yes, but I don't know. This is just funny - we all need to chillax
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:03 am So, guys, let us try and make a reset. We could start from these agreeable points:

- Diplomacy with backstabbing is complicated and risky and emotionally involving. In that context, It's normal that players get mad at other players for what they do in game.
- The more we speak in PMs, the more diplomatic mistakes we can commit. That's why no one ever will have a beef with o01eg, or why no one is wary about Endhu in this game, while I am a fucking demon despite trying to be 100% honest and reasonable in my negotiations (yes, DB, I really think I was fair in what I offered you in our negotiations, utterly fair; we agree to disagree).
- You all can concede now because I am about to finish my megafleet of solar hulls with neverending flows of troopers, Fremen style, so you better start thinking on what you learnt during this game and hope to be in my team next game 8)
Yep, and I have new super weapon called a Solar Extinguisher - which will turn those hulls into small moons, before I make then asteroids.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#402 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak, I NEVER said that W was mucking around.

I allow you to copy-paste here any PM I sent to you to prove what you just said.

Otherwise, you better retire that statement or get me personally offended.


Edit: unless by "mucking around" you mean that he was considering his options, the same you were doing. But in that case, it would make no sense to accuse W of playing mind tricks if you were doing exactly the same.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#403 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:03 am But there is more. Only now, after reading the chats between DB and W, I realize that W also had more reasons to ask for my support: his intention to ally DB against me was also mediated by LR entering into that alliance (W, seriously? WTF OMG LOL, we'll have to talk about this...), and since LR didn't want to, W had a good amount of reasons to ally me (unless DB had helped W out, which seemingly didn't happen). So, Daybreak, when you say "(W was) at the same time boasting it to Oberlus", you are wrong. It wasn't at the same time, W first tried the alliance with you and LR, and he accepted my offer only after that failed .
Geez Louise... The number of things people can read into 5 sentences, that are not actually there...
wobbly wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:30 pm Game Situation

Oberlus is becoming quite strong. I have an alliance with him of information sharing but both of us know we will be enemies some day. I suggest as some point forming an alliance (hidden or formal) with 0o1eg or Endhu or both.

I'm trying to broker peace with LR who had early gains but is now on the defensive. We will see where that leads.
Where exactly does it say it alliance with LR? It says peace which literally means peace. LR took a colony from me, I took it back. I was fairly confident I could take down LR at the time. I was also fairly confident that win or lose, both of us would lose. You, daybreak and Endhu all constantly building colonies while me and LR did nothing but spam ships at each other. I figured it was worth trying to negotiate a peace deal which kept me and LR in the game, whether we trust each other or not. He gave a counter offer that would of been only good for him, involved me giving him a free outpost (or at best demolishing it) and tried to justify it with the same reasons that caused the initial dislike between us in the very 1st MP game we both played in.

"both of us" refers to Oberlus. Rereading that it could be unclear.
"I suggest as some point forming an alliance (hidden or formal) with 0o1eg or Endhu or both". This bit is also I guess unclear, it could be read to mean I'm in the alliance or not. No one was allied at the time (except me and Oberlus). That is unusual. It was meant as helpful advice: "Get an ally"

It is implied that I would help in a fight with Oberlus. Not just implied, it was my actual intention. It was looking like Oberlus was outpacing everyone. I still suspect he was. Outpacing someone doesn't win you the game if you underestimate someone, make a bunch of tactical errors and get outplayed. Not much in that hyperthetical situation actually came about. Peace with LR feel through. I was bogged down in a fight where I couldn't do much other then concentrate on my own battles. Daybreak kept up the pace with Oberlus close enough that it was unclear who had the stronger empire: Oberlus or Daybreak + Endhu. o01eg of course never got the Trith off the ground.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#404 Post by Daybreak »

this is ridiculous
Sent: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:30 pm
From: wobbly
Recipient: Daybreak
Game Situation

Oberlus is becoming quite strong. I have an alliance with him of information sharing but both of us know we will be enemies some day. I suggest as some point forming an alliance (hidden or formal) with 0o1eg or Endhu or both.
3 days later
Sent: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:26 pm
by Oberlus

Wobbly already told me that he hinted Daybreak (and you?) that I was already too strong and that allying against me was a good idea (we do that kind of things, friendly).
Oberlus this was an extract from the post you sent to Endhu, and then copied it to me

with emphasis on (we do that kind of things, friendly)

which I took as we go around talking to all players in every game mucking around with their minds.

Which I thought was smart and funny, and my estimation of Wobbly went up.

Can we drop this now - its a complete waste of time.
Last edited by Daybreak on Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Twentieth game on the multiplayer slow game server

#405 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:51 am Wobbly - I do apologise.
Thanks. I appreciate it. It is possible I didn't need to arc up so much. However it was the 2nd time I had to read that I was untrustworthy (the 1st was earlier in this thread). I let the 1st time slide. The 2nd... Sometimes arcing up lets a person know that no, actually this is something you'll take offense at. Anyway like I said, I'd rather have fights with ships then personal arguments.

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