Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#391 Post by LienRag »

Wobbly, are you aware that you didn't play your Danyspin turn ?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#392 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:10 pmI find most of the policies are quite not sci-fi related (most would work the same for this game as for Age of Empires/Civilization/etc.), and I really miss sci-fi themed stuff...
Lots of science fiction plots and settings are allogories for real world social issues, and many current or historical economic systems and social issues can fit in a speculative fiction / sci-fi setting. The implication for me is that all the historical ideas in policies or other content are meant to have "but in SPACE!" at the end of their names. That's not to say that purely sci-fi ideas like Psychohistory can't also be added when a suitable gameplay effect for them is identified.

Also, there is still a ton of sci-fi technobabble in the swaths of ship part and hull and engineering related content, and many of the buidings, specials, fields, species, etc.

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#393 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:15 pm The policy unlock can be moved later in the tree, if appropriate. I would have thought that the need to also adopt a policy (and have a slot to do that with) would be similar to it being later in the tree in terms of ease of getting the bonus in play.
I meant the whole "remove the bonus unless there is a policy adopted" should be moved later in the Tech Tree (that is, leave the Algorithmic Elegance bonus alone since that early in the Tech Tree forcing to adopt a Policy is too constraining; and choose another Tech later in the Tech Tree to remove its bonus unless the player adopts a Policy).


Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:15 pm I'd still rather avoid having many techs like that, and rather have stuff like discussed here: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... t-46046548
I know. What I'm saying is "wait to have things that actually work before removing the things that are known and tested".
Though, I have to admit that Oberlus' argument about DTC already giving flat bonus may be valid.
So I won't plead for the return of Artificial Minds if the consensus is that it's not missed.


Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:15 pm I'm not sure whether the current complaints are just due to a lack of other stuff to sufficiently generate research at a rate similar to before, or rather due to resistance to having to do more to get the bonus when players were used to getting them just for researching a tech.
Well, there is certainly some subjective resistance to change.
Also, as I wrote before, the general design ideas are sound, but the implementation is still lacking.

And the result is indeed that it's very difficult for non-research Species to have enough research points to even research the techs that will improve their research.

And I believe that keeping some bonus "just by researching a tech" is still a good thing to do.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#394 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:51 pm Wobbly, are you aware that you didn't play your Danyspin turn ?
Thanks. I must not of pressed turn before getting kicked out yesterday.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#395 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:04 pm And the result is indeed that it's very difficult for non-research Species to have enough research points to even research the techs that will improve their research.

And I believe that keeping some bonus "just by researching a tech" is still a good thing to do.
Its however much easier for good research races to get the bonus from artificial minds however and pull further ahead.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:15 pm
LienRag wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:51 amArtificial Minds was the second part of NAI when Oberlus split it in two.
It brought a second flat +1 bonus when focused on Research.
I'd still rather avoid having many techs like that, and rather have stuff like discussed here: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... t-46046548

I'm not sure whether the current complaints are just due to a lack of other stuff to sufficiently generate research at a rate similar to before, or rather due to resistance to having to do more to get the bonus when players were used to getting them just for researching a tech.
More generally though I think the late game boosters were always a bigger problem then the early game boosters. Late game has a lot of boosters crowded all together and you generally have enough research by that point to get them all at once. Individually they are probably fine, but together? They tend to all click in around the same time.

For example take a look whats off Theory of Everything: Pure Energy Metabolism, Enclave of the Void, Stellar Tomography. You queue all 3 of them and they all kick in at once. And they all kick in generally around the same time as N-Dimensional Structures. There's others I'm forgetting that come at the same time I'm sure.

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#396 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:05 am
Its however much easier for good research races to get the bonus from artificial minds however and pull further ahead.

(...)

More generally though I think the late game boosters were always a bigger problem then the early game boosters. Late game has a lot of boosters crowded all together and you generally have enough research by that point to get them all at once. Individually they are probably fine, but together? They tend to all click in around the same time.

For example take a look whats off Theory of Everything: Pure Energy Metabolism, Enclave of the Void, Stellar Tomography. You queue all 3 of them and they all kick in at once. And they all kick in generally around the same time as N-Dimensional Structures. There's others I'm forgetting that come at the same time I'm sure.
Good analysis, on both counts.

Early game could have some more boosters, like keeping Algorithmic Elegance the way it was, keeping NAI the way it is, the new Exploration Policy from Geoff (if it is a race, not just tediously wandering from one starlane to another), and probably a bit later a new tech that will unlock a Policy giving Research Points (per Population ?).

Then the other techs you mentioned should be split more on different branches and at different levels of the Tech Tree.

I guess that Unified Consciousness already has been put further from others than it was ?

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#397 Post by wobbly »

I'm out. Current game hasn't been enjoyable for me for quite a while and I've only played on for test purposes. Someone else can take control of my empire.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#398 Post by LienRag »

From the numbers Oberlus gave us this evening on the chat, it's probably difficult for us to win against him now.
Also, some players are losing interest I believe, and I can understand them : If we're just going to be grinded to death, it's more tedious than challenging.

I still believe that we had a chance, so :
- Is it technically possible to have a rematch starting on the turn Oberlus was close enough to his territory that he had enough fuel to not be stranded in enemy territory ?
- Would you, Oberlus, be interested in that ?
- Would any other player also be ?

Starting on July 28 and provided that I succeed in installing the snap package on a computer that doesn't overheat, I'll probably be able to play up to six Empires against Oberlus if no one else wants to play.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#399 Post by Oberlus »

I'm not interested on a rematch. I prefer to start a new game with recent changes to keep doing useful paytesting for next release.

I agree with you, LR, that you had chances if attacked me earlier, at the very beginning of the dogpile (wobbly disagrees, he thinks I understimate the disadvantage of your low speed fleet to reach my shipyard world and blockade it before I can build up army).

GG everyone. Let's start a new game.

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#400 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:35 pm I'm not interested on a rematch. I prefer to start a new game with recent changes to keep doing useful paytesting for next release.

I agree with you, LR, that you had chances if attacked me earlier, at the very beginning of the dogpile (wobbly disagrees, he thinks I understimate the disadvantage of your low speed fleet to reach my shipyard world and blockade it before I can build up army).

GG everyone. Let's start a new game.
OK, I guess I can understand your choice.

Savor your ice-cold beer then...

Attacking earlier may have been possible but Wobbly is right that the speed was a major problem, as it would have allowed you to concentrate forces when and where you wanted while we could only head in one direction.
The thing is that disrupting your ability to move your fleets at will would have necessitated a lot of micromanagement of our own ships, which was quite difficult to coordinate between five players and anyway would have taken a lot of IRL time.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#401 Post by wobbly »

It took 3 turns for speed 120 troop ships to reach Scylla thats 5 or 6 turns at speed 60. It's the same fight where you wiped the whole fleet without a single loss except now we fight on your planet defenses instead of dany's double stack and don't have any of the ships that had only just arrived at Scylla. A large chunk of the weapons don't even get through your shields. Even if we somehow blockade, hard against a fleet that can wipe you without a loss then what? You still have more PP at a higher tech level. Doesn't matter that you xan't build titans. Neither can we.

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#402 Post by Oberlus »

Then I would win again if we did a rematch. I'll have two beers.

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#403 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:21 am Then I would win again if we did a rematch. I'll have two beers.
Well, I disagree with that.
I won't wage more than a beer on my victory in a rematch, but I sincerely believe that it would be a hard challenge, albeit a doable one.

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LienRag
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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#404 Post by LienRag »

I played my turn when I got a message telling me that the turn started, but is there any point in that ?

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Re: Sixteen game on the multiplayer slow game server

#405 Post by Oberlus »

Next turn I'll adopt Divine Authority if I can. Without anyone playing wobbly's empires each turn will take 27 hours and his armies won't move.

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