Thoughtful development, Turns 2..13

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Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#46 Post by Uriuk »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm I already gave the explanation
You gave answer for different question.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm read it again please.
That was impolite. I read it twice before posting my previous message (and reread twice at your request).
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm Your mental model is flawed/does not fit the way the game works.
I do understand your model. I have 2 models in my mind. My model, and your model.
I can change my spreadsheet to have your results.
But You can't change the game to get mine result.
The fact that I understood 2 models, and you only 1 lead me to the conclusion that I am twice smarter than you.
If you have IQ for example 160, then I have 320.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm Adjust your mental model accordingly.
No, you!

Ophiuchus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#47 Post by Ophiuchus »

Uriuk wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:21 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm I already gave the explanation
You gave answer for different question.
Ok then the answer is probably: If it would be implemented differently complexity would be much higher.

Your question is like asking in chess "Why does the bishop move the way it does?" And the answers are: "Because it is chess" or "The game works good with the bishop moving this way".

And i did not try to be impolite. You need to adjust your expectations to reality. It does not work the other way round.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Oberlus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#48 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk, you're out of line and owe an apologize to Ophiuchus.

He gave right answer on first place, and took time to explain stuff that you were asking, in order to help you, while he could just ignore your existence and your irrelevant (for FO project) questions and focus on game development or having a good time with a beer.
So you should be grateful instead of confrontational.

Also, you are making lots of wrong assumptions, both incorrect and unpolite:
- He understands your model.
- You don't understand reasons of current implementation (yet judge it as incorrect).
- You need to change your mind if want to achieve your objective of predicting game values.
- Ophiuchus changing his mind won't help you on that goal.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#49 Post by Uriuk »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm - You don't understand reasons of current implementation (yet judge it as incorrect).
If implementation doesn't correspond to the specification, then this is wrong implementation. Despite of the fact how easier it was to implement it, and what it is less complex.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm he could just ignore your existence
He already did so. Earlier in this thread I asked to explain how string resources works in this project, and he ignored.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm You need to change your mind if want to achieve your objective of predicting game values.
I will do, but if I do it immediately I will not get understanding of reasons which lead to flawed implementation.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm He understands your model.
He didn't provided reasons why implementation was done the way it done. So I am unsure.
In contrast your answer about difficulties with interaction shows that you understood both models and essence of my question.
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm you should be grateful
I am partially grateful to him for the part where Init and Cur explained, but not for the part where he advises to accept this implementation.
Last edited by Uriuk on Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#50 Post by Uriuk »

What prevents me from making move 8:
1) military advisers wants to estimate bombardments of organic species. That looks very costly solution for the problem on encountered race. But if it is costly for undefended planet, why it will be applicable to similar defended planet?
And it is fantastic that it is possible to fire into planet surface with lasers through the planet atmosphere.
2) I need to calculate base plan for the single planet (it will stop changing at turn 14), and base plan for two planets. At which turn the growth of output will stop without new actions?
3) how large is the price of postponing invasion for a turn? This is necessary to make decision about postponing building Automated History Analyser vs completing it first.
4) think about possible alternative activities
5) think about future production after producing troopships (will I need reserve troopships for the event of something unexpected?)

Uriuk
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The worst possible plan

#51 Post by Uriuk »

This plan should show the profit from capturing the planet.
The second planet will give additional 2.8 points of production per turn (which is 11.2 Cr/turn)
The price of capturing it = 29 PP * 6 Troop Ships + 12 PP * 2 Scouts = 792 Cr
The planet will return investments in 71 turns.

This plan assumes that:
1) Automatic History Analyzer will not be built
2) No more research will be done (for Production, Growth or Science)
3) No switching to "production focus" will occur
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Uriuk
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Bombardment

#52 Post by Uriuk »

The 3 projects will be researched at turn 53
Advanced Eco-Manipulation = 100 RP
Bombardment = 200 RP
Death Spores = 150 RP
Cheapest ship will cost 15 PP, and will give damage 0.5
It will fly 5 turns via 3 starlanes
It will bombard the planet out in 20 turns.
Total cost is 450*3+15*4=1410 Cr

In which scenarios bombardment will be more effective than invasion?
Is stealth bombardment possible (i.e. when ships are detected after they start and complete the bombardment, eliminating all population in one round)?

If it's necessary to bombard out enemy's empire of many planets, it probably will be cheaper then to produce a lot of troopships, but this is without calculating the cost of recolonization.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#53 Post by defaultuser »

This gets stranger by the day. I kind of could follow what he was doing at the start, but the latest makes no sense.

Uriuk
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All into the production plan

#54 Post by Uriuk »

The idea of this plan is to maximize production from both planets.

i.e. switching into production on the homeworld, capture the second planet and research production improvements only.

Focus switching to production from
Research target = 9.41
Production target = 11
makes
Research target = 5 (with fall rate = -2)
Production target = Current Population * (0.5 + 0.2 - 0.05) = 22 * 0.65 = 14.3 (with growth rate = +1)

The research plan will be
Robotic Production = 24 RP
Fusion Generation = 36 RP
Industrial Centers = 60 RP
Planetary Bunker Complex 10 RP
Active Radar 100 RP

This plan will stabilize with summary
Production = 26.3 + 9.10 = 35.4
Research = 5 + 0 = 5
The second planet will be captured 3 turns faster than in the worst plan,
and second planet summary PP will be 121.5 instead of 38.6 (~3 additional troopships)

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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#55 Post by Uriuk »

defaultuser wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:12 pm latest makes no sense
I am trying to do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_analysis

Uriuk
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Two fractions

#56 Post by Uriuk »

As of now there are two fractions in Etty's species.

First fraction urges to research "Nascent Intelligence" and says that this is vitally important for cybernetic plants like Etties, that new planet is small and not worthwhile to invade at the expense of research slowdown.

Second fraction is greedy and cowardly, they say that Etties should focus on production, develop production techs first and build a huge fleet to defend from other aliens.
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defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#57 Post by defaultuser »

Pointing to a Wikipedia article doesn't explain what YOU are trying to do with THIS problem.

You have only a small fraction of the data that you will have. Any model you construct must take that into account. Generally, some sort of layered model that can work with what it has.

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Oberlus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#58 Post by Oberlus »

defaultuser wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:01 pm Pointing to a Wikipedia article doesn't explain what YOU are trying to do with THIS problem.

You have only a small fraction of the data that you will have. Any model you construct must take that into account. Generally, some sort of layered model that can work with what it has.
I think the sensitivity he is testing is of a different nature.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turns 2..7

#59 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:34 pm
defaultuser wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:01 pm Pointing to a Wikipedia article doesn't explain what YOU are trying to do with THIS problem.

You have only a small fraction of the data that you will have. Any model you construct must take that into account. Generally, some sort of layered model that can work with what it has.
I think the sensitivity he is testing is of a different nature.
:lol:

My current theory is somebody who started learning economics and tries to apply such models to a game. Instead of seeing where those models fail and consider what kind of assumptions are prebaked into those models just choose to ignore.

But your theory is also not disproven ;)
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Uriuk
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Re: Two fractions

#60 Post by Uriuk »

The government was unable to prepare proper plans under time constraints,
so the old plan remained in execution (to complete Automated History Analyzer),
the discovered planet was ignored for now, and exploration continues.
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