What nerf are you talking about?
Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
Moderator: Oberlus
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
Team S.M.A.C.: play multiplayer with us!
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
It has been published that a change was made so that stealth carriers are only stealthy on turns/rounds when they do not do either of:
1) fire one or more weapons
2) launch one or more fighters.
On the round they launch, they become visible, and therefore vulnerable to attack.
J.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
So they work as any armed ships: get attacked from bout 2 onwards.JonCST wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:07 amIt has been published that a change was made so that stealth carriers are only stealthy on turns/rounds when they do not do either of:
1) fire one or more weapons
2) launch one or more fighters.
On the round they launch, they become visible, and therefore vulnerable to attack.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
I think it's a good strategy for good research empires that does not go for shields: their smaller production gets compensated with the extra protection from first strike and the surprise factor.
Again, only convenient for empires with a characteristic: good or great planetary stealth. That way the enemy has to invest more RPs than you to see you. With great planetary stealth it's easy to keep invisible until late game.
Each detection level you get gives you +20, so two levels of detection can't cancel out three levels of stealth, so I think your calculations are wrong.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
One level of detection cancels out one level of stealth.
One level of detection plus Lighthouse (IL) cancels out 2 levels of stealth.
Copped/pasted from the version 2019-11-24 Pedia entries for Stealth parts:
And, of course, they don't stack.Weak Cloaking (+20)
Moderate Cloaking (+40)
Strong Cloaking (+60)
For Detection technologies:
So, if your opponent has the same detection strength you need in order to research stealth, they can still see you unless you have a hull bonus. Which IL will overcome:Unlocks the Active Radar ship part and the Scanning Facility building, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 75, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 30.
Unlocks the Neutron Scanner ship part, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 150, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 50.
Unlocks the Sensors ship part, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 200, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 70.
Admittedly, one needs ILs in lots of systems, but they only cost 25 PP, much less than an ED part for a single ship, yes?Decreases the Stealth of all objects in the same system by 30
Finally, Contra Gravitational Maintenance only costs 500 RP. SGH has 100 structure, and takes 2 turns to build. Protoplasmic hull has at most 30 structure and takes 5 turns to build, then another 50 turns to reach full strength. Is the 30% bonus going to overcome the difference between the two?
Unless the Pedia is wrong, of course.
Jon
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
So that was fun to catch up on. To answer JonCST and wrap up a few other things -
1. No, I don't think organic hulls are underpowered, in general. They're cheap, fast, and some are stealthy. In particular I've been caned by the Static Multicellular hull enough times that I'm considering going for it next time. I have never done so before because I think organic == stealth so I always go the other route, but SMH is really good value. The stealthy hulls are very fragile but that's kind of reasonable.
2. No, I don't think stealth is pointless, I think it's great - if you can maintain your advantage. In the game where you went for planetary stealth, I went for ship stealth and kept ahead of o01eg and Oberlus until quite late. Yes stealth carriers are basically pointless because of the way the mechanics work, but if you can blow up your enemy on round 1 (and you can pick the fights), they can't hurt you. I do think stealth needs re-thinking in the late game, or rather I think detection needs re-thinking because at the moment detection strength is a single thing obtained from a single tech, and I'd like it to be building-based so that detection strength varies across an empire and you need to invest more to counter stealth. I think you underestimate the effectiveness of your strategy in the fourth game - you didn't win, but I don't think that's because stealth was an underpowered strategy, I think you were up against a team with sufficient advantages to overcome it.
3. I do think the robotic hull is overpowered, my considered view is that it should have three external slots not four - either that or the energy frigate should have five. But the gravity hulls are a huge investment because they need both RP *and* PP, and very few races/starts can get enough of both. Organics need RP and lots of forward planning but far fewer PP which is good for research-led strategies. So I think the rest of the robotic hull line is quite well balanced, it's just the first hull that is overpowered. This is borne out by four consecutive MP games in which people have still been building robotic hulls at turn 100 and nobody has built gravity or energy hulls until then.
And to reply to Oberlus, although I am very open about optimisation, I don't take that outside the game interface itself - I would happily agree to a no-communication game. I don't particularly see the point (the in-game chat is just a less convenient communication interface), but I would be able to abide by it.
1. No, I don't think organic hulls are underpowered, in general. They're cheap, fast, and some are stealthy. In particular I've been caned by the Static Multicellular hull enough times that I'm considering going for it next time. I have never done so before because I think organic == stealth so I always go the other route, but SMH is really good value. The stealthy hulls are very fragile but that's kind of reasonable.
2. No, I don't think stealth is pointless, I think it's great - if you can maintain your advantage. In the game where you went for planetary stealth, I went for ship stealth and kept ahead of o01eg and Oberlus until quite late. Yes stealth carriers are basically pointless because of the way the mechanics work, but if you can blow up your enemy on round 1 (and you can pick the fights), they can't hurt you. I do think stealth needs re-thinking in the late game, or rather I think detection needs re-thinking because at the moment detection strength is a single thing obtained from a single tech, and I'd like it to be building-based so that detection strength varies across an empire and you need to invest more to counter stealth. I think you underestimate the effectiveness of your strategy in the fourth game - you didn't win, but I don't think that's because stealth was an underpowered strategy, I think you were up against a team with sufficient advantages to overcome it.
3. I do think the robotic hull is overpowered, my considered view is that it should have three external slots not four - either that or the energy frigate should have five. But the gravity hulls are a huge investment because they need both RP *and* PP, and very few races/starts can get enough of both. Organics need RP and lots of forward planning but far fewer PP which is good for research-led strategies. So I think the rest of the robotic hull line is quite well balanced, it's just the first hull that is overpowered. This is borne out by four consecutive MP games in which people have still been building robotic hulls at turn 100 and nobody has built gravity or energy hulls until then.
And to reply to Oberlus, although I am very open about optimisation, I don't take that outside the game interface itself - I would happily agree to a no-communication game. I don't particularly see the point (the in-game chat is just a less convenient communication interface), but I would be able to abide by it.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
The only UI changes happened in 2019-12-03.c0eb3bb weekly test build.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-11.2, boost-1.78.0
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-04-14.ad50e93.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-04-14.ad50e93.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
Turn 70
Diplomacy is hard...
Diplomacy is hard...
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
I'm a bit stressed out with so much diplomacy
For next game, could we do ring-shape galaxy and one of the following?
- No alliances allowed, only peace.
- Every empire can have maximum 1 ally.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
Alliances can be easy disabled at server-side only. Restricting number is more complex.Oberlus wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:21 amI'm a bit stressed out with so much diplomacy
For next game, could we do ring-shape galaxy and one of the following?
I don't know if server can enforce any of that, but could be a good addition if some01 implements it.
- No alliances allowed, only peace.
- Every empire can have maximum 1 ally.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-11.2, boost-1.78.0
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-04-14.ad50e93.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-04-14.ad50e93.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm
Re: Seventh game on MPSGS
Perhaps we should start a new topic?
Would be a real test of:
J.
If we want to take this to the extreme:
- No natives
- No monsters
- No specials
- No communication
Would be a real test of:
- How well each player strategizes and tacticals.
- How much the initial species assignment affects the outcome.
- How much the randomness in creating the initial layout affects the outcome.
J.
Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)
My ideal for next game would be:
Galaxy shape: ring.
It allows for a fair distribution of players: you have one on the left and one on the right, you can't end up in the centre of the galaxy with enemies in many fronts.
Specials: low.
No specials is a great advantage for phototrophic and self-sustaining species.
Monsters: low.
Monsters: none would mean that any special is readily obtainable, which is a disadvantage for empires that do not get one nearby.
Natives: low.
Just because.
Galaxy shape: ring.
It allows for a fair distribution of players: you have one on the left and one on the right, you can't end up in the centre of the galaxy with enemies in many fronts.
Specials: low.
No specials is a great advantage for phototrophic and self-sustaining species.
Monsters: low.
Monsters: none would mean that any special is readily obtainable, which is a disadvantage for empires that do not get one nearby.
Natives: low.
Just because.