New Buildings

Creation, discussion, and balancing of game content such as techs, buildings, ship parts.

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lord_midnight
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Re: New Buildings

#16 Post by lord_midnight » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:59 pm

so when / how is supply line distance calculated ? Is there no opportunity to add a small arithmetic operation just before it ?

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Tortanick
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Re: New Buildings

#17 Post by Tortanick » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:54 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:The supply building might be interesting, but as it is now, it doesn't really fit with the game mechanics. There's no way to make resource supply lines get longer, except by increasing planets' construction meters. We could separate them and have a meter just for resource supply, but people are already complaining about there being too many meters...
I would separate them, a building that increases supply range* by one or two jumps seems like a good idea. But you don't need an entire meter, it could still be based on construction with a simple +1 added to the result.

* Either spaceports or interstellar lighthouse, we can't drop an idea as cool as interstellar lighthouses, an alternative for them is to increase speed for the surrounding systems.

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pd
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Re: New Buildings

#18 Post by pd » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:03 am

Tortanick wrote: a building that increases supply range* by one or two jumps seems like a good idea.
Why is that? What's wrong with increasing the construction meter? It does the same thing(already) in regards to the fuel supply range. Having too many ways to do something might get confusing.

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Tortanick
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Re: New Buildings

#19 Post by Tortanick » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:32 am

Two reasons: firstly a fast way to increase, unlike the construction meter a building can import production points from off world. And secondly to push past the construction meter's maximum to extend your supply to key locations like a choke point from a safe distance.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: New Buildings

#20 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:09 pm

lord_midnight wrote:so when / how is supply line distance calculated ? Is there no opportunity to add a small arithmetic operation just before it ?
The distance a particular system can transport supply on its own is determined in Empire::UpdateSystemSupplyRanges() in Empire.cpp. The distance for each system for each empire is the largest value for any planet owned by that empire in the system. Each planet's value is, in pseudocode:

floor(planet.currentConstruction / 20)

which means take the planet's construction meter, divide by 20, and round down to the next integer. If a planet's construction is between 0 and 20, it can't propegate any supply. If it's between 20 and 40, it can go one starlane jump. Between 40 and 60, it can go two jumps, etc.

Adjustments to this formula could be made, but it would require adding a bunch of special case code and effect or building parsing code and such in order to be able to specify that a particular building should alter the formula in a particular way. If we were going to do this, we might as well just make resource supply distance into a meter, and have an effect somewhere that (by default) sets planet supply distance to planet current construction / 20, and then other effects could modify it further to change this relationship.
Tortanick wrote:But you don't need an entire meter, it could still be based on construction with a simple +1 added to the result.
That +1 isn't really very simple to implement without a meter. Doing it with a meter would be relatively simple, since we already have a robust effects system for such adjustments / calculations.

It is simpler to have various statistics calculated behind the scenes in a fixed way than to have a few more meters so each statistic of this sort can be calculated in different / controllable ways. A plus to using more meters is that we can display the value, and have a tooltip that shows why the value is what it is, including what techs or buildings modify it, although that would require having a spot for the meter icon, making the UI more complicated.

Another issue is why such a building should exist... lord_midnight doesn't like having shorter limits, but we don't want them to be made much longer too easily, as having to keep your populated systems close together to be able to easily exchange resources, and to make empire shape important, is supposed to be part of the strategy. We may find that the current supply meter lengths are too short with later testing, though, and having an established way to modify those lengths besides changing the divisor in the construction to supply distance formula might be helpful.

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Josh
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Re: New Buildings

#21 Post by Josh » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:18 pm

Here, guy.

Some additional help if you need it.

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lord_midnight
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Re: New Buildings

#22 Post by lord_midnight » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:23 pm

well, I think that from a galactic empire's point of view, getting the empire to work as one cohesive thing would be a key goal. Raising production on some planets is very difficult.

I think that problem, that the universe is unpredictable, and that all of your planets might not get construction high enough to extend supply line. No government would let a critical point in shipping cripple them. The strategic purpose of this tech, is that irrelevant of an individual planets particular meters, the empire operates with a certain level of shipping prowess. Building doesnt really cover it, a galactic post office or fedex, with a fleet of ships and supply depots and hubs. Im sure this already exists in the empire to some degree, there is a supply system. I do not think this is a mater of production, and a raw bonus to production is not the intent nor will it cover what Im talking about. It should not raise production directly. It should raise supply, so planets can focus more efficiently.

The best implementation, would allow the empire to function as a whole, as if it was just one big giant planet. That is pretty powerful. Next would be all contiguous planets, not interrupted by gaps or enemy controlled planets, but not connecting "islands" of planets away from the core systems. Last would be a simple modifier to each planets supply distance, either by a raw addition or a percentage. Giving each planet a base supply distance, like all planets get a supply distance of one or two jumps minimum, is another option.

Gameplay wise, at some point once a player has gained a certain set of mid level techs, they should no longer need to worry about supply distance or production. They should just set planets to get the best they can out of them, and centralize farming on farm friendly worlds, so you can take research planets and set them to research, etc. Gaining this tech or building this building, improves this part of the empire to a level that no longer requires attention.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: New Buildings

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:55 pm

lord_midnight wrote:Gameplay wise, at some point once a player has gained a certain set of mid level techs, they should no longer need to worry about supply distance or production.
Essentially you're proposing to remove the supply system and all the strategy that it requires of players with regard to colony placement and empire shape, after the initial stage of the game. We've decided to have a supply system, so that's not going to be done lightly. If you can propose a set of mutually exclusive strategic options, one of which is to focus on greater empire resource integration / resistance to blockades, etc. which would be implemented using a building or tech such as you propose, then it might be possible. Sufficiently long supply lines to be able to route around most blockades would probably be a mid to late game feature in any case, and even then, empires would have to still be vulnerable to blockades that completely block all possibly supply routes.

Remember: the point of adding content isn't to make it easier and faster for empires to do stuff or to avoid limits of the game design. Adding content should give strategic options to players, some of which may be chosen, and others not. On the design forums, you're not a player: you're a game designer.

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Josh
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Re: New Buildings

#24 Post by Josh » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:06 pm

A thought:

Maybe the term buildings is misleading; it gives the aura of something mundane. Perhaps they should have a term like "achievements" instead, which goes to mean "something remarkable" or "accomplished through superior ability", and helps to specify their value.


And now, In the spirit of the supply debate, how about a building/achievement/secret project that prevents military blockades instead?

The Logistics Paradigm: Grants immunity to military blockades. One per galaxy.

Game breaking?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: New Buildings

#25 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:40 am

Josh wrote:...how about a building/achievement/secret project that prevents military blockades instead?

The Logistics Paradigm: Grants immunity to military blockades. One per galaxy.

Game breaking?
Probably game breaking. This would make an enemy empire's supply disruption efforts useless, and would eliminate the need to use a fleet to maintain control one's own supply lines.

This would also mean we couldn't have any sort competition between stealth and detection technology to make blockading harder or easier and there'd be no arms race between these tech branches. [edit]Dueling tech levels to improve or prevent blockades is mentioned in the design.[/edit] If/when they are added, then there could be some unique / limited buildings that give bonuses to an empire's supply line "stealth" everywhere, or within some distance.

If an absolute prevent-blockades building were to be added, it'd need to have a bunch of limits on where and how it functions.

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Josh
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Re: New Buildings

#26 Post by Josh » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:04 pm

Oh. I didn't realize supply lines also had stealth.

Well if or when midnight comes up with some new buildings I'd be happy to help with the needed icons, which come to think of it still need a style.

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utilae
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Re: New Buildings

#27 Post by utilae » Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:20 am

Hmmm, the idea of eliminating the supply system because advanced tech means things can for example be teleported instantly to another planet is an interesting one.
But I think we should keep the supply system constant throughout the game. It would be good to have some techs alter the supply systems properties for example long range teleportation tech would have an effect such as making supply lines unblockable. Whether that is game breaking, I do not know, but there may be a point where blocades are no longer effective, which could be perfectly fine, and even lend toward the idea of not needing ships to fight ships, etc.

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OndrejR
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Re: New Buildings

#28 Post by OndrejR » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:21 am

What about spying tech allowing supply from selected empire supply lines? Something like resistance. Or trade supply lines.

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Josh
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Re: New Buildings

#29 Post by Josh » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:36 pm

Utilae wrote:It would be good to have some techs alter the supply systems properties for example long range teleportation tech would have an effect such as making supply lines unblockable.
Stargates :)

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Krikkitone
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Re: New Buildings

#30 Post by Krikkitone » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:12 pm

utilae wrote:Hmmm, the idea of eliminating the supply system because advanced tech means things can for example be teleported instantly to another planet is an interesting one.
But I think we should keep the supply system constant throughout the game. It would be good to have some techs alter the supply systems properties for example long range teleportation tech would have an effect such as making supply lines unblockable. Whether that is game breaking, I do not know, but there may be a point where blocades are no longer effective, which could be perfectly fine, and even lend toward the idea of not needing ships to fight ships, etc.
A very good idea for "end game" techs is beginning to 'break the game', changing+reducing the strategic options (to the specific 'win now' set.)

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