trigger mines for hidden ships? Also: Mines in space fluff

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Ophiuchus
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trigger mines for hidden ships? Also: Mines in space fluff

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:32 pm Although ships have to use a starlane, so its not that far out there, that the end of starlane can be monitored.
yeah, i in my imagination this the reason why system mines work (at least in turn of arrival and departure).

the idea to really cover the all empty space in a system with so many mines that one cant stay clear of them is really ridiculous.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Changing PLC_CHECKPOINTS

#2 Post by Daybreak »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:04 pm
Daybreak wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:32 pm Although ships have to use a starlane, so its not that far out there, that the end of starlane can be monitored.
yeah, i in my imagination this the reason why system mines work (at least in turn of arrival and departure).

the idea to really cover the all empty space in a system with so many mines that one cant stay clear of them is really ridiculous.
Yes and no - its fluff, but you could say mines could be seeded in orbit of a planet, such orbits being required by a fleet to maintain an attack against the planet.

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Re: Changing PLC_CHECKPOINTS

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:11 pm Yes and no - its fluff, but you could say mines could be seeded in orbit of a planet, such orbits being required by a fleet to maintain an attack against the planet.
yes, that is actually similar to my starlane argument. this extends credibility for cases where an attack happens.

one thing mines do most effectively is damaging hidden ships which just sit in a system and do not want to be detected. that is very hard to explain.

edit1: we could of course trigger mines only on arrival, departure and after combat. needs another discussion thread though
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Re: Changing PLC_CHECKPOINTS

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:04 pm the idea to really cover the all empty space in a system with so many mines that one cant stay clear of them is really ridiculous.
We can think of mines like small, hard to detect, explosive debris floating in the system's open space.
Ships (hidden or not) do move around the system even if they are just sitting there for several turns, they can't just be static in some point, they are orbiting something at great linear speeds. Or, if they are static with respect the sun or whatever, they are still moving with respecto to any other object in the system, the mines will be moving around.
It's not necessary to have one mine per cubic hectometer through the whole system, you can have much more sparse mine fields (like one mine per million km^3) and yet make it impossible to avoid them all, just because the distances that a ship cover during a turn (a turn could be a few years or a century, enough to travel between star systems) are so huge that they will be traversing humongous amounts of space, and thus the probabilities of collisions are much bigger than one would suspect.
The damage taken by a ship from mines each turn is the sum of the several mine impacts that the ship could not avoid.
Better tech mines implies more dense mine fields, or more powerful mines, or harder to detect mines, or more complex patterns of orbits that increase the probabilities of collision for the expected trajectoreis of enemy ships, or...
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:09 am one thing mines do most effectively is damaging hidden ships which just sit in a system and do not want to be detected. that is very hard to explain.
If the ship was hidden, the explosions it triggered made it possible to pinpoint its approximate location.
I wouldn't complain if hidden ships were fully revealed after triggering mines. But I also like current system: you don't know what triggered the mine, you just saw the explosions. An indication of how many different hidden objects triggered the mines would make sense. But we can just leave it as it is.

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[mines] Re: Changing PLC_CHECKPOINTS

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:37 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:04 pm the idea to really cover the all empty space in a system with so many mines that one cant stay clear of them is really ridiculous.
We can think of mines like small, hard to detect, explosive debris floating in the system's open space.
...travel between star systems) are so huge that they will be traversing humongous amounts of space, and thus the probabilities of collisions are much bigger than one would suspect.
i would guess that if you crunch the numbers they would be still miniscule. maybe if you speed the mines up to a speed where they almost escape the system... dunno.. still not convinced. anyway, i actually dont care ;)
if you want to further discuss that topic, please open up a new thread (even better split the thread)
Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:37 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:09 am one thing mines do most effectively is damaging hidden ships which just sit in a system and do not want to be detected. that is very hard to explain.
If the ship was hidden, the explosions it triggered made it possible to pinpoint its approximate location.
I wouldn't complain if hidden ships were fully revealed after triggering mines. But I also like current system: you don't know what triggered the mine, you just saw the explosions. An indication of how many different hidden objects triggered the mines would make sense. But we can just leave it as it is.
the main gameplay question I raised if we want hidden ships to trigger the mines at all. The effect could also be to increase unstealthiness meter (in case we add that). I could also imagine a probalistic triggering of mines. So even if one sometimes sees mines explode, not seeing mines explode could still mean there is something slipping by (so one is not sure, where the enemy lurks).

Another issue: passing through a system with mines (without staying there) should in my opinion also (be able to) trigger those.

As said, please split the mines thread.pleaaaase
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rambling about mines

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am the main gameplay question I raised if we want hidden ships to trigger the mines at all.
I do want.
I was just elaborating on why I think they have to trigger the mines, the same you commented on why they should not.
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am The effect could also be to increase unstealthiness meter (in case we add that).
I don't see the need to any new stealth meter. Something that increases the unstealthiness of a ship is something that lowers its stealth (for anyone else to see).
When a ship triggers mines it could get a stealth penalty of -10 or -20 for that turn.

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Re: Rambling about mines

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:31 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am the main gameplay question I raised if we want hidden ships to trigger the mines at all.
I do want.
I was just elaborating on why I think they have to trigger the mines, the same you commented on why they should not.
yes, thats the fluff discussion.

i rather hoped you reply to the gameplay question (which you did right now but did not state your reasons)
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Re: Rambling about mines

#8 Post by Oberlus »

So no one is asking for hidden ships to not trigger mines?

My gameplay reasons to let hidden ships trigger mines is that it seems a good use case for mines: to force stealth empires to renew their hulls so that their hidden scouts/skirmishers/troops can sustain mines damage.

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Re: Rambling about mines

#9 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:23 am So no one is asking for hidden ships to not trigger mines?

My gameplay reasons to let hidden ships trigger mines is that it seems a good use case for mines: to force stealth empires to renew their hulls so that their hidden scouts/skirmishers/troops can sustain mines damage.
I like the way it currently works for similar reasons.

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trigger mines for hidden ships?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:23 am So no one is asking for hidden ships to not trigger mines?
dont know how to answer that strawman. also i do not never try to take care when using double negation as spanish english and german english are not exactly the same. so i'd say: one asking for it is me.
wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:48 pm
Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:23 am My gameplay reasons to let hidden ships trigger mines is that it seems a good use case for mines: to force stealth empires to renew their hulls so that their hidden scouts/skirmishers/troops can sustain mines damage.
I like the way it currently works for similar reasons.
fair enough
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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trigger mines for hidden ships?

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:48 pm
Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:23 am My gameplay reasons to let hidden ships trigger mines is that it seems a good use case for mines: to force stealth empires to renew their hulls so that their hidden scouts/skirmishers/troops can sustain mines damage.
I like the way it currently works for similar reasons.
i agree that forcing to renew ship hulls is fine/a good mechanic.

i bring up again the visibility part:
i dont think it is a good thing that one can force a stealthy fleet to show up as a bleep and there is no way around it.

The defending empire needs mines-1 and a patrol ship, that's it. No counter possible. Even if you have 60 stealth more than the other has detection.

The possible solutions i can think of:
  1. allow stealthy passage for a fee; e.g. slow drive/passive hide fleet stance gets around the mines (so the stealthy empire needs more turns); a special military policy which allows for this; 1IP cost per ship passing by mines.
  2. have mines explode sometimes if there is no enemy: very stealthy regenerating harmless monster (yikes)
  3. dont introduce a counter, keep it as it is
  4. completely remove the explosion info; or only show it sometimes (e.g. if more than one ship): "An unusual number of mines exploded at system ..."
i guess i like the last one most, the one-(small)-ship-in-mines-per-turn-is-not-suspicious solution. this is a bit micro, but for stealthy, micro is mostly fine.
one could sneak a combat fleet past a chokepoint, one ship after the other to assemble the fleet in a uncolonized system. if we interpret "small ship" as low structure, this would probably be a buff to shields.

Any ideas for 0.6?
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Re: trigger mines for hidden ships?

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:47 am i dont think it is a good thing that one can force a stealthy fleet to show up as a bleep and there is no way around it.
There is a workaround: don't stop in those systems.

There is no workaround to getting detected by a Lighthouse, apart from not stopping where there is one.

The defending empire needs the lighthouses and continuous scanning to be able to detect mostly anything. So add a patrol ship and that's it, no counter possible.

<shrugs>


But I'd really like to get extra stealth from a fleet toggle (or fleet toggle + policy, "Silent Running") that makes the fleet slower, I've been proposing it for several years.

So, change the activation/scope conditions of mines to ignore those ships set to silent running (no combat, low speed) as long as they are not detected? Or including if they are detected?


have mines explode sometimes if there is no enemy: very stealthy regenerating harmless monster (yikes)
+1 to the yikes.
I mean, no, please.

Showing it only for certain number of ships seems hard to balance and makes huge stealth ships more interesting and dangerous, but those are exactly the kind of ships that can ignore mines damage.

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Re: trigger mines for hidden ships? Also: Mines in space fluff

#13 Post by wobbly »

As far as fluff is concerned I've always considered space mines to be an automated homing rocket system.

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Re: trigger mines for hidden ships?

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:59 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:47 am i dont think it is a good thing that one can force a stealthy fleet to show up as a bleep and there is no way around it.
There is a workaround: don't stop in those systems.
not possible to flyby if there is a stationary ship
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Re: trigger mines for hidden ships?

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:59 am But I'd really like to get extra stealth from a fleet toggle (or fleet toggle + policy, "Silent Running") that makes the fleet slower, I've been proposing it for several years.
i am still in
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