Too many empty systems?

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Num7
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Too many empty systems?

#1 Post by Num7 »

Hi,

Is there a way to tweak the starting galaxy setup, so that somehow, there are way fewer empty systems?

All the games I've played recently had literally tons of empty systems with nothing in them, no star, no planets. Now that I write this down, I notice I didn't count or make stats, but empty systems must have been around 40-50% of all systems. Is this intentional?

I believe the game would feel much better if most systems had stuff in them. Most similar games don't have that many empty systems, so it feels odd to me.

Thanks!
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Oberlus
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Hi,

Did you play with the Planet Density option at galaxy setup? It makes more probable to find planets from start.

Anyways, the presence of empty systems is deliberated: it makes terrains effects more varied. This means stuff like "from this supply-connected system A (end of supply reach) to this other neighbouring system B you need to spend 3 fuel (3 empty spaces in between) -> if you want to get to B for colonization or invasion, you need ships with fuel 3, or waiting several turns in one of the stops; if you want to get there for an attack and be able to come back if things go wrong, you'll need ships with six fuel; you could use improving your supply range, researching better fuel tanks, researching better hulls, decide to go for a different system and come back to this later when you have more techs...". Stuff like this brings in a lot of tactical variability into the game, which means more variables to consider when you decide your research order, your ships designs, etc. It makes the game less predictive and more interesting (at least for me).
Also, consider that the percentaje of empty systems goes down by a sizeable chunk during game due to nebulae coalescing into new star systems.

This said, we could have an option at galaxy setup to make empty systems less frequent. Either a "maximum" planet density option, if it already controls the probability of empty systems, or a new one to control independently distribution of planets per non-empty system and distribution of empty systems.

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stpa
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#3 Post by stpa »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:14 pm This said, we could have an option at galaxy setup to make empty systems less frequent. Either a "maximum" planet density option, if it already controls the probability of empty systems, or a new one to control independently distribution of planets per non-empty system and distribution of empty systems.
are you sure you are not mixing up planet density with star density there? anyway i agree, there should be more possible options for either of those. i was about to do something in that general direction anyway to give more control over the guardians/monsters/nests/spawning and native species placement (who are gaining in biodiversity in the foreseeable future..) i'll have a look at universe creation phase while i'm at it and see what can be done about the "Too many empty systems?" question – which i would answer with a wholehearted yes, notwithstanding your excellent explanation of why it is nice to have __some__ empty systems, a little more explicit control at game setup would be nice to have.

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Oberlus
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Yes, right:
- Star density to decide how many systems have an star or a nebula. Ideally one of those thingies to roll the number between 0% and 100% (ideal), or give 5 options: 100% (full), 60% (high), 35% (medium), 25% (low), 15% (scarce).
- Planet density to decide how many planets to place on a given system with star. What we have now, or maybe one extra option above and another below.

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stpa
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#5 Post by stpa »

hm that gap between 100 and 60 sounds pretty wide, just like the choice between no star formation at all and waay too many empty systems – and a slider also feels kind of off to me for this, maybe rather 100, 95, 90, 80, 60, 30, 15? and while at it, the field spawning and star formation rate – well that probably already depends on galaxy age, i have not really begun to look deeply into this - anyway at some point there might be just too many options for the total beginner, where it maybe useful to have setup-shortcuts "if you are a beginner and dont want to bother with all our options in detail, click here and have a nice game" or a set of presets or maybe a wizzard .. "are you new to this game? yes/no, do you want a long/short game? do you want aggressive neighbours? etc." which sets some appropriate values for all the options according to a few quick answers.

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Oberlus
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#6 Post by Oberlus »

stpa wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:18 pm hm that gap between 100 and 60 sounds pretty wide, just like the choice between no star formation at all and waay too many empty systems – and a slider also feels kind of off to me for this, maybe rather 100, 95, 90, 80, 60, 30, 15?
All right, more finegrained in the high. But not that much.
100% -> no empty systems. 95% or 90% will have nearly no difference, don't do them.
75% -> 3 star systems per empty system, that's quite low already, with most routes between planets with no empty systems on them. Why would you want to play with this setting? there will be no fuel problems (you can always outpost), never a need to combat in an empty space, empty spaces will be close to irrelevant at this rate. That's why I think it's better if you don't even include it in the first try, and only reconsider after playtesting.
66% -> 2:1, not 100%, but quite close: you will seldom find yourself in a bifurcation where both ends are empty spaces.
50% -> 1:1, close to what we have now I think?
33% -> 1:2, sparser than now
20% -> 1:5, a challenge, great for great fuel species, something new. Probably no need to do anything sparser than that.

This is counting on all nebulae coalesced. I didn't check what is the ratio nebula : stars : empty spaces currently.

Oh, : stars : gives :stars:
:star:
:planet:
:moon:

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stpa
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#7 Post by stpa »

and colon beer and wine as well i suppose? :beer: :wine:

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stpa
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#8 Post by stpa »

lol, just the beer then, serves me well enough, cheers

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stpa
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#9 Post by stpa »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:49 pm All right, more finegrained in the high. But not that much.
100% -> no empty systems. 95% or 90% will have nearly no difference, don't do them.
75% -> 3 star systems per empty system, that's quite low already, with most routes between planets with no empty systems on them. Why would you want to play with this setting? there will be no fuel problems (you can always outpost), never a need to combat in an empty space, empty spaces will be close to irrelevant at this rate. That's why I think it's better if you don't even include it in the first try, and only reconsider after playtesting.
66% -> 2:1, not 100%, but quite close: you will seldom find yourself in a bifurcation where both ends are empty spaces.
50% -> 1:1, close to what we have now I think?
33% -> 1:2, sparser than now
20% -> 1:5, a challenge, great for great fuel species, something new. Probably no need to do anything sparser than that.

This is counting on all nebulae coalesced. I didn't check what is the ratio nebula : stars : empty spaces currently.
i can see your point there, but on the other hand as it stands now, (at least some kinds of) monsters prefer to spawn in empty space, so all the setup options are all interconnected after all, so fewer empty systems multiplied with lower monster spawn rates gives totally different monstrosities than your 20% starry systems with the new 99% monster spawn - you'd get a bunch of new monsters in almost every system in almost every turn .. for those who like it rough

this clearly needs more thought and maybe i'll start thinking by doing some digging into universe creation.

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Re: Too many empty systems?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Num7 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:56 pm I believe the game would feel much better if most systems had stuff in them. Most similar games don't have that many empty systems, so it feels odd to me.
oberlus answered why empty systems are important in freeorion.

one of the things where freeorion is different from other games is that supply lines/supply networks are very important. and the way to extend those are on the macro level technologies, policies... and on the micro level with colonies and outposts. And the "micro" can get quite high: a tiny planet (+2), with a great supply species (+2) focussed on supply (+3). If you make that one your capital (+2) everything in 9 jumps is connected to that supply network.

"unusable" places in between make for challenges to connect stuff to your networks. (e.g. you need to put an outpost in the right spot), it influences your empire layout on the map and the technologies and species you are going for or even prohibit you from using some policies e.g. centralization negates the capital +2 bonus. note this is mostly in the early to mid game challenge. after that you have enough supply strength capabilities to connect everything without much trouble.
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Num7
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Re: Too many empty systems?

#11 Post by Num7 »

Thanks, I didn't think of the supply system, it now makes a lot more sense strategically.
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