Influence Dept reset when no Policies

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Grummel7
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Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#1 Post by Grummel7 »

Just found that when you have no policies adopted at all, a influence debt is reset at the end of each turn. So if you lose 5 influence each turn, your dept is limited to 5.

Sounds like a feature added to stop AIs from screwing themselves while they don't know how to deal with policies. If so, I think it should not apply to players.
Last edited by Grummel7 on Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Focuses

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

It is not meant specifically for AIs, but regardless of that, AIs don't get different game mechanics than human players (except for a couple bonuses on beginner mode).

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Focuses

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

ah that fixed the "AI always kill themselves with influence debt".
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:34 am It is not meant specifically for AIs, but regardless of that, AIs don't get different game mechanics than human players (except for a couple bonuses on beginner mode).
it allows playing without caring about influence (this is good for beginners and current AI)

it allows unlimited expansion if you dont care about policies (this might be fine(?))

it seems this is a very fast way of getting rid of all influence debt. not sure if this a problem. havent played with large debt for a long time, so i am not sure how stability etc and riots work then.

Also for a player this is probably unexpected; GUI would be probably better to have (also) a zero-cost policy one can adopt (it would provide a good place to put documentation and also hints that you need to get rid of policies).

it is scripted in default/scripting/techs/construction/OUTPOST.focs.txt

btw. the topic name should be -> "Influence Dept reset when no policy"
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Grummel7
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#4 Post by Grummel7 »

Well, you can use it at the beginning: Adopt Centralization and do not care about Influence, then remove it, when you have a way to produce influence, e.g. after settling a planet with a luxury resource.

I don't think it is a game breaker, but the way it is done right now, it simply looks like a bug.

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

Maybe just delaying the effect for e.g. 10 turns is enough as a mostly working fix?
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#6 Post by Grummel7 »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:56 pm Maybe just delaying the effect for e.g. 10 turns is enough as a mostly working fix?
You mean it will only be reset when a player did not have any adopted policy for 10 turns, to avoid abusing it? That should at least make it less interesting to abuse. You could also make it 20, players who never adopted any policy at all won't get negative that quickly.

You could even make it absolute: reset it only if the player never had adopted any policy ever. Then put it into a beginners guide: Game can be played without policies and influence.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#7 Post by Geoff the Medio »

It's not an exploit or a bug. It's a way to recover from a massive influence debt by collapsing society and restarting, which requires de-adopting all policies and re-adopting them, starting from nearly-zero banked influence.

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LienRag
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#8 Post by LienRag »

What's the effect on Stability of such resets ?

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Grummel7
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#9 Post by Grummel7 »

LienRag wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:37 pm What's the effect on Stability of such resets ?
Well, nullifying the influence dept also resets the stability penalty from influence dept.

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#10 Post by Grummel7 »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:36 pm It's not an exploit or a bug. It's a way to recover from a massive influence debt by collapsing society and restarting, which requires de-adopting all policies and re-adopting them, starting from nearly-zero banked influence.
Well, let's declare it a feature then - let's put that explanation into the pedia article for Influence. Perhaps we could also add a site rep message when the reset is done.

Btw. I think Industry, Research and Influence should be linked under *Game Concepts*.

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#11 Post by LienRag »

Grummel7 wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:35 pm
Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:36 pm It's not an exploit or a bug. It's a way to recover from a massive influence debt by collapsing society and restarting, which requires de-adopting all policies and re-adopting them, starting from nearly-zero banked influence.
Well, let's declare it a feature then - let's put that explanation into the pedia article for Influence. Perhaps we could also add a site rep message when the reset is done.

Btw. I think Industry, Research and Influence should be linked under *Game Concepts*.
I'm all for the possibility of no-influence strategies, but the way I understand the answer I got to the Stability penalty question, this Dept reset allows for unfettered extension with the only penalty being inability to adopt Policies.
Though Policies bring nice boni, middle-game and late-game these boni pale compared to the ability to conquer without limit ?
So starting middle-game it'll be a no-brainer to deadopt all Policies and just go conquer everything in the Galaxy - which is the exact opposite of what Influence was designed for.

Or did I miss something ?
I haven't tried this "perpetual debt jubilee" strategy, I confess...

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:31 pm I'm all for the possibility of no-influence strategies, but the way I understand the answer I got to the Stability penalty question, this Dept reset allows for unfettered extension with the only penalty being inability to adopt Policies.
Though Policies bring nice boni, middle-game and late-game these boni pale compared to the ability to conquer without limit ?
that part is basically a balance question. and its important to define mid-game and late-game in term of number of planets. i think the discussion said basically unlimited expansion is ok from a certain point on - else we have to figure in galaxy size/count-and-maybe-size-of-available-planets into our equations somewhere.

also you have to define unlimited expansion here; we were calling out exponential expansion mainly because it is hard to catch up to that for others. so whatever the expansion curve, as long it is possible in "normal" games to catch up if the leading party makes mistakes all is fine.

data point: i am right now pondering if i should evacuate one of my planets because with the current policies etc it costs maybe more than it brings in. and i certainly would do that if i could use it to build a megalopolis somewhere, but my max population is still too low with current techs. if i get that max pop I would also switch the capital i guess.
at current tech levels metropoles bonus is still very helpful - and with metropoles it is ok to have three planets on influence focus per metropole i guess.

i am mostly forced to used industry focus, for the liberty bonus kicking in at 8 stability (and decreasing its max by 2). I will try terror suppression soon to bring stability to 10+ to be able to use GGG (all of George sais booo) and I am not sure about the resulting influence cost, so I am saving up all influence points i can while not being able to produce many. Lacking symbionts for growing structure, I probably will build some base hull pop suppressors with lances (for fast deployment) or small asteroid ones (for saving PP). I may have to say goodbye to liberty and seriously nerf my research though.
I will gift away all unnecessary george warships and build the next generation using another species.

one note to me: if evacuation factors in e.g. target population, local growth focus should be possible anywhere (with only one step) to mark growth targets.
LienRag wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:31 pm So starting middle-game it'll be a no-brainer to deadopt all Policies and just go conquer everything in the Galaxy
i doubt that this will be more efficient. and can also simply be countered by having late-game policies which are better.
LienRag wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:31 pm I haven't tried this "perpetual debt jubilee" strategy, I confess...
well, try and tell
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#13 Post by Oberlus »

I just hope this "feature" is only a thing in the game until AI is able to adopt policies and manage stability levels and influence balance.

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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:58 am I just hope this "feature" is only a thing in the game until AI is able to adopt policies and manage stability levels and influence balance.
i think geoff expressed he considers this as a feature also for players. and i agree that it is good to have a way to get to a clear slate.

i think it is also ok to have a way which allows "endless" expansion as galaxy size is not restricted. else we probably need a better story for planet ships or not being planet bound. i imagine your whole empire roams around, militarised planets clashing against one another, maybe sometimes upgrading to a better planet type (type, size, specials).

for roaming around it would be probably enough if there are alternative ways to extend supply groups. It also may be that solar hulls/zero-point fuel generators and sometimes outposts/stargates actually suffice.
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Re: Influence Dept reset when no Policies

#15 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:20 am
Oberlus wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:58 am I just hope this "feature" is only a thing in the game until AI is able to adopt policies and manage stability levels and influence balance.
i think geoff expressed he considers this as a feature also for players. and i agree that it is good to have a way to get to a clear slate.
Oh...
I think I don't understand what you mean with clear slate. You don't mean being able to clear out influence debt despite bad policy choices, right?

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:20 am i think it is also ok to have a way which allows "endless" expansion as galaxy size is not restricted.
If we get only one way to conquer the galaxy and it is by teking the no-influence route, then the game will be broken. I can develop on this if you don't agree, but the main point is it will be hard or impossible to balance both strategies with so different mechanics.

But game won't be broken with influence, it's been sketched policies to allow for infinite growth using policies and influence upkeep: there will be a late-game policy that puts a maximum on colony influence upkeep.

better story for planet ships
Agree, but this lacks backend support and is not in the near future I pressume.

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