Stealth rebalance (0.5)

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Oberlus
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Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#1 Post by Oberlus »

For 0.5 we need to rebalance stealth to make it a viable strategy, since recent additions made it harder, and it was already relatively hard to pull out.
This thread is to polish out a complete set of changes to achive this goal.

I suggested:
- Add an early policy to increase planetary stealth, to counter Active Scanning (Subterranean Something or No Surface Activity: +stealth and some or all of -supply, -infrastructure and -population).
- Add an early policy for ships' stealth (Silent Running: -speed, +stealth), and maybe add to that same policy -supply and +stockpile or leave that for Isolation policy.
- Add an early part for situational stealth (the hide-in-GG part based on LienRag's idea, with some changes that he doesn't like) to help with early game hidden expansion and hidden skirmishers.
- Optionally, detach planetary stealth from detection techs and adjust costs, so that it is not always cheaper to detect than to hide.
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:55 am I would add
- ship stealth malus in the turn after battle
- maybe extra stealth for isolation policy? (and maybe half or two-thirds of the distance)
- nerf lighthouse as planetary stealth breaker in some way (not sure besides

also what needs to have a closer look: as we now have gradual stealth - what happens if detection equals stealth (we could make that clearer if e.g. detection is always uneven and stealth is always even).

optional extra content:
- stealthed natives
- maybe extra challenges with higher detection (e.g. spawning obstructive guardians as soon as being detected)

from all those suggestion only some address the defensive stealth issue: the planetary stealth policy, the tech tree change, extra planetary stealth via isolation, lighthouse nerf

In the following days I'll reply here with a proposal with current and suggested stealth techs, policies and parts.


Related threads:

New species trait: ship stealth: either that or unlocking the first stealth part tech, that only affects early game.

Stealth mechanics proposal: this changes stealth mechanics in several ways and needs backend changes. Not for 0.5. But some of its ideas can be used already, in conjuction with policies, if only FOCS changes are needed. It comes to my mind a ship stealth bonus from passive fleet setting, which relates to the suggested Silent Running military policy.

Three shdes of stealth: also probably not for 0.5, near the end of the list.

Older threads for reference:
Stealth Fundamentals
Stealth as a combat strategy / mechanic

Ophiuchus
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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

Adding some planetary stealth for defense focus

Another idea was to make stealth and/or detection grow slowly, not abrupt
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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LienRag
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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#3 Post by LienRag »

What about my additional levels of Detection tech (so as to not go from 70 to 200 in one go, entirely defeating any Stealth-based strategy) ?

If you do a complete revamp of the Stealth mechanisms they may not be necessary (I don't know), but will you achieve that before 0.5.0 ?

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#4 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:53 pm Adding some planetary stealth for defense focus
I believe the game is more interesting when there is a choice to make between strength and stealth rather than when it's possible to have one's cake and eat it.

There is a Stealth focus in the code, maybe we should activate it (if there's a way to not make it a no-brainer) ?

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:53 pm Another idea was to make stealth and/or detection grow slowly, not abrupt
Interesting, but it would remove the originality of the Continuous Scanning policy (which is basically the only good thing about this Policy, it works very differently than the rest of the game mechanisms).

Also making both grow slowly seems to me counter-productive, as we'd have basically the same race than now.
Making only Detection grow slowly is more interesting as it gives the Stealthy one a window of opportunity to strike and/or prepare its defenses (or to research more Stealth).

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#5 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:18 pm
- Add an early part for situational stealth (the hide-in-GG part based on LienRag's idea, with some changes that he doesn't like)
As long as these changes don't make the part-bearing ships weighted towards defense rather than offense (nor does it make it non-situational), I may be convinced - but yes I'm stubborn so expect me to defend my vision.

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#6 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:18 pm - Add an early policy to increase planetary stealth, to counter Active Scanning (Subterranean Something or No Surface Activity: +stealth and some or all of -supply, -infrastructure and -population).
The fluff is interesting, but I don't know how it's possible to avoid making it a boring tit for tat against Continuous Scanning ?

Going underground should be a complete strategy (preventing Orbital thingies : Habitation, Drydock, Generators, ...), which means that we'd need separate buildings to make it viable (maybe some specific focus also ? That's the only way to have some planets with regular shipyards), maybe a specific ship hull line (that can be built underground), maybe reinforcing defenses also (underground bunkers and earth-to-space missiles).

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#7 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:13 pm expect me to defend my vision.
Don't worry.
LienRag wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:20 pm how it's possible to avoid making it a boring tit for tat against Continuous Scanning ?
I guess the answer to that is "in the opposite way to avoid making it a thrilling decission to make".
Going underground should be a complete strategy
Don't you find a bit hard to travel through the space if you keep underground? Oh, I get it, you mean making planet-ships. First hull to unlock could be "Tiny Planet", base cost 5 PP (just for the engines, the rest is already built, 4 external slots, 12 internal, speed 10, has population as a tiny planet, etc.).
Nah, I'm joking. Planet ships are a thing, already suggested, not for now.

You got nice ideas here, just a bit confused:
- Give a planetary stealth malus for having one of any orbital thingy (that is, give them all the same stacking group), like Orbital Drydock (and the self-gravitation one that requires it, extra malus) and all energy hulls or only the upgrades, and some of the organic shipyard upgrades, but basic organic shipyard and all asteroid shipyards don't give any malus.
- Make Orbital Habitation an economic policy (+population, -stealth, maybe also +supply and -influence).

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#8 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:37 pm You got nice ideas here, just a bit confused:
- Give a planetary stealth malus for having one of any orbital thingy (that is, give them all the same stacking group), like Orbital Drydock (and the self-gravitation one that requires it, extra malus) and all energy hulls or only the upgrades, and some of the organic shipyard upgrades, but basic organic shipyard and all asteroid shipyards don't give any malus.
- Make Orbital Habitation an economic policy (+population, -stealth, maybe also +supply and -influence).
Not what I thought about, but why not...

About the Stealth malus for ships, I would say that it depends where the stealth comes from - I mean, there's more game diversity if some Species/Stealth strategies suffer with shipyards and some not.

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Re: Stealth rebalance (0.5)

#9 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:18 pm For 0.5 we need to rebalance stealth to make it a viable strategy, since recent additions made it harder, and it was already relatively hard to pull out.
This thread is to polish out a complete set of changes to achive this goal.

- Optionally, detach planetary stealth from detection techs and adjust costs, so that it is not always cheaper to detect than to hide.
I disliked the idea at first, but now with the time and experience, I believe that this could be the way to go.
Probably also have different paths for Stealth (not Stealth 1 then Stealth 2, though obviously we should keep the costs growing with each level) : Electromagnetic Damper unlocked by Asymptotic Material, Absorption Field by Force-Field Harmonics, Dimensional Cloak by N-dimensional Subspace, Phasing Cloak by Temporal Mechanics...
Something from Mind of the Void too, and another one from Pure-Energy Metabolism or whatever.

So the player has to guess which level he needs against his enemies, and also make a choice between quick but low Stealth and higher Stealth but through a longer path.

I believe that if this is combined with enough Situational Stealth, it'll be quite interesting (if correctly balanced, of course).

Maybe do the same for Detection techs ?

So Omni-Scanner could come at the end of the Tech tree, something like Transcendant Detection ? Would be clearer that nothing can escape its seeing eye...


Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:37 pm
Going underground should be a complete strategy
Don't you find a bit hard to travel through the space if you keep underground? Oh, I get it, you mean making planet-ships.
Yes for the first question, no to the second.
Rather Drydock Caves, that would make ship-building more difficult (maybe adding 4 turns to the production of any ship ?), so going underground gives stealth, but which comes with a cost. Also, it would be nice to have any ship launch remove (cumulative) Stealth from the planet for three turns... That way one has to check that no enemy is around before launching, or risk being detected.

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