Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

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Ophiuchus
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Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

I think with the current policies Sly may be broken. At the beginning anyone going for a distributed empire is basically forced to go for a connected empire or have a horrible hit on influence.

I think every planet set to influence is producing about four influence. And every disconnected planet needs two influence instead of one.

Just now this is not much of a problem, but as soon as there are consequences of low influence (as we plan for 0.5) it will be really bad.

So an average-influence connected empire can support three resource-producing planet for each influence producing planet while a disconnected empire can support only one.

Sly got good influence which helps a bit (5.5 for influence focus, i.e. support one and 3/4th resource-producing planet) , but is still only about half as useful. And the Laenfa are actually bad at influence (3.25 for influence focus, i.e. you need almost two planets on influence focus to support one resource-producing one). Laenfa are better off though as it is much easier for them to connect planets early.

The policy which helps is probably confederation and you get it after researching orbital construction (80RP) and interstellar logistics (150RP) - which are both techs which help with building connected empires, so exactly the opposite what you would research for distributed empire. Getting this for midgame could be ok I guess (but not the opposite of specialisation and commitment to distributed empire), but not for early game.

And you also need a social policy slot which you get for psychological architecture (200RP) with prereq asymptotic material (20RP).

One thing which would work - move the confederation policy to somewhere else and make it easier to use (social slot unlock or different category). Maybe even from the start - in that case it probably has to be an economic policy.
Another option would be to provide another policy which can be used from the start. For example "Independent Worlds" policy - costing extra influence if the supply network is stronger than local supply - this one could be combined with the no-supply policy.

Or we delay the colonisation for distributed empire - first going only for the capital, building outpost networks. Maybe a policy for getting small amount of resources from outposts (e.g. 1 PP). And then a sudden switch to colonizing the outposts. Maybe the policy would allow to colonise without supply connection (turns based on unobstructed hop-distance) - being close this would still be slow as it needs to be fed by the stockpile.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oberlus
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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#2 Post by Oberlus »

We start with an economic slot and relatively soon a military slot. I think we should start with one slot of each kind, and maybe make the command center unlocked later (instead of from start) for a second military slot.

Current allocation of policies to techs (I mean, what tech unlocks what policy) is indeed not optimal, and I think it can't be without doing really weird stuff fluff-wise due to the almost absolute lack of social "techs" in the tech tree.

Edit:
Current influence upkeep is, IMO, a placeholder for actual equations that will take into account distance to capital (imperial palace) or other buildings. Confederation policy could swap that kind of distance-based upkeep by another based on number of colonies. It could have its uses for both distributed (supply-less) and connected empires.
No one should use an influence upkeep that does not grow exponentially along with some variable (current equation grows linearly with number of colonies and ignores distance).
I would remove the extra maluses from supply-disconnected planets from the default influence upkeep. A policy favouring connected empires could include such kind of malus (e.g. Confederation), but no the default influence upkeep, to not hinder too much distributed empires (forcing such empires to always get the same set of techs/policies at start in order to get a viable strategy is a form of hindering, also boring).
Distributed empires could have a relatively early policy to switch the default influence upkeep to something else more suited for distributed empires than the distance-based one, if someone can come up with something like that.

Edit2: stealth empires are in general broken with the policies because now it is much easier to increase detection than it was before. That alone will cripple Sly regardless of the influence upkeep issue.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Sly could also be given an extra or early social policy slot.

Alex077
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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#4 Post by Alex077 »

The current policies in Sly appear to favor connected empires over distributed ones, which may become problematic with upcoming low influence consequences. One potential solution is to reposition or simplify the Confederation policy, making it accessible earlier or as an economic policy.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#5 Post by wobbly »

Sly have it open from the start. There was discussion (and from my memory general agreement) somewhere about all races having it open at start.

Personal opinion is that is only a partial solution, as an empire with confederation policy has 1 less slot to take something else.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#6 Post by wobbly »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:16 pm Sly could also be given an extra or early social policy slot.
This would only solve the problem for Sly, unless confederation itself opened an extra policy slot.

Edit: One option that is perhaps more interesting then confederation opening an extra social slot, is having it open an extra economic slot. Then you have another social policy that is more authoritarian/militant that opens an additional military slot.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:32 pm Edit: One option that is perhaps more interesting then confederation opening an extra social slot, is having it open an extra economic slot. Then you have another social policy that is more authoritarian/militant that opens an additional military slot.
given the current content, the other way could make sense: having an economic policy which opens a social policy slot.

or making confederation a economic policy

also a policy e.g. which gives benefits once per system in a lets say 3-hop radius would help stretched empires more than those which go wide/tall (cause systems which are in the radius of multiple systems only count once)
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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:37 pm or making confederation a economic policy
An economic policy for distributed empires. Could be Distributed Economy.
If it also gives stockpile extraction bonuses, Ubiquitous Economy sounds better.

Then Confederation could be repurposed as a social policy to increase opinion of species, for species that doesn't dislike the policy itself.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#9 Post by wobbly »

There's also the simple solution of removing the -1 IP for disconnected planets. I'm not convinced that it adds something to the game.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#10 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:53 am There's also the simple solution of removing the -1 IP for disconnected planets. I'm not convinced that it adds something to the game.
Or move that penalty to Centralization.

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#11 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:50 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:53 am There's also the simple solution of removing the -1 IP for disconnected planets. I'm not convinced that it adds something to the game.
Or move that penalty to Centralization.
Centralization already heavily penalizes disconnected planets, -4 IP (the max distance-from-capital penalty). Nobody gonna use centralization for anything but baby / starting empires

Something tells me I would always pick a social policy that gives me economic policy. Such trade seems very favorable to me.

Fulver already unlock Confederation early, one of few good things going for them in my book cause I like vassalization very much and no need to research interstellar logistics. But this generally gives Fulver slight disconnected empire bias too, with their poor hability but unique scouting and great fuel they're encouraged to explore... but conquer rather than settle, I'd say. Wouldn't mind Sly unlocking that too

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#12 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:53 am There's also the simple solution of removing the -1 IP for disconnected planets. I'm not convinced that it adds something to the game.
Well, it adds strategic possibilities for the enemy...

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#13 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:39 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:37 pm or making confederation a economic policy
An economic policy for distributed empires. Could be Distributed Economy.
If it also gives stockpile extraction bonuses, Ubiquitous Economy sounds better.

Then Confederation could be repurposed as a social policy to increase opinion of species, for species that doesn't dislike the policy itself.
So rough sketch of an idea:

Move confederation to economic policies (renamed or not).
Does the things it does now + opens a social policy.
Opened by exploration policy or interstellar logistics tech (currently opened by interstellar logistics or sly/fulver)

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#14 Post by LienRag »

Not sure that I get what you mean ?

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Re: Distributed empire strategy broken? - what to do

#15 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:18 pm Not sure that I get what you mean ?
The core of the idea is that distributed empires effectively have 1 less policy slot then non-distributed empires (as they need to spend a slot on confederation). Hence the idea of confederation opening a policy slot. If it opens a different category slot then the 1 it uses its more interesting then "consumes 1 social slot, opens 1 social slot"

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