Page 1 of 2

Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:42 pm
by wobbly
For some reason laenfa are now above average at everything (except troops of course, & ancient galaxies).

Good at production (via the pop bonus)
Good at research (via pop bonus)
Good at colonizing (Broad Tolerance + Pop bonus)
+Planet Stealth
+Detection
Big boost from Distributed Thought Network (Telepathic, Good pop, Broad Planet Tolerance) which they now get earlier (as their research was buffed)

They are literally all pluses outside of bad troops.

I found this
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/1676

which suggests there was some discussion elsewhere about them being weak, though I haven't managed to find it. I suspect if they were struggling against some races then laenfa weren't the problem. Laenfa were already better then humans which are going to suck more & more if everything else gets buffed.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:13 pm
by LienRag
Laenfa were quite dependent on luck on middle-aged Galaxies (they needed to have bright stars near their homeworld or they would suffer) and as you pointed very disadvantaged in old Galaxies.
And apparently people don't usually play in young Galaxies...

I proposed to make a pop-boosting Special ("Krill manure") for Phototropic metabolism that would be more frequent in older Galaxies to mitigate the problem Phototropic species face there but it got no answer.

You are right that for now, Laenfa are very powerful in young Galaxies...
Pop bonus is the best advantage of all (maybe a bit less since Oberlus' general nerf, though).

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:29 pm
by Ophiuchus
LienRag wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:13 pm Pop bonus is the best advantage of all (maybe a bit less since Oberlus' general nerf, though).
Actually pop bonus got even more buffed as the flat-bonuses got nerfed. Laenfa with good influence they are definitly OP ATM.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:24 am
by Oberlus
Actually, pop. bonus is quite not interesting by itself.

The +/- 25% population affects a small subset of pop-boosting effects:

- Base environment modifier (good +3, adeq. +0, poor -2, host. -4)
- Sym. bio. (+1, +1, +1, +0)
- Xeno. gen. (+0, +2, +2, +1)
- Xeno. hybr. (+0, +0, +1, +2)
- Cyborgs (+0, +0, +0, +2)

Total: (+4, +3, +2, +1).

Any other pop. modifier (phototrophic, HW supply, growth and gaia specials, other techs, etc.) is not affected by the trait. So the population trait affects 28.6% of all pop. bonuses for good planets with gaia, 30% for adeq., 22.2% for poor and 12.5% for hostile. +25% to 30% of your pop is +7.5% to 100% of your pop.

This means that the most you can get from Good Population is equivalent to 1 growth special in good, 0.75 in adeq., 0.5 in poor and 0.25 in host. That amounts to around 8% more population than an average population species (it varies with the availability of good/adeq. planets, but will hardly be better than 10%). So a good pop. species has +8% industry and research than avg. pop. species.


Research and production species traits works similarly, some techs/buildings are affected and some aren't, but the net gain from the Good Production/Research trait is bigger: 50% of the total pop-based industry bonus is affected by the industry trait, and 60% of pop-based research bonuses. And so a good industry species (+50%) gets actually a +25% boost over total industry, and good research gets +30% research. A good industry, avg. pop. species is stronger than a good pop., avg. industry species.


Regarding Laenfa's population, what you can get (or lose) from phototrophic has a stronger effect on balance, but only when too un/lucky on mature or playing young/ancient (30% for all environments). In normal galaxies and uniform luck for all empires Laenfa are worse than Trith and not better suited for victory than Egassem, George or Scylior.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:53 pm
by LienRag
Thanks for the explanations.

Shouldn't all that be more visible in the Pedia ?

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:30 pm
by Oberlus
LienRag wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:53 pm Shouldn't all that be more visible in the Pedia ?
I think so. I guess no one took the time to do it.

Each tech/policy effect should indicate in its Pedia article whether it is affected by species traits (effect has higher priority than the species trait) or not (lower priority than species trait).
The species trait's Pedia articles could be more verbose on the expected increases depending on other factors.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:36 pm
by LienRag
I wanted to say that for a while but forgot :
Laenfa refueling on bright stars is interesting in itself, but the numbers used now are way too high.
I'd say +.02 on White and +0.5 on Blue should be enough.
Or multiply the ship's non-species dependant refueling by 2 on White and 4 on Blue maybe ? So Ramscoop will at last have some utility...

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:08 pm
by Oberlus
Ramscoop +2 fuel per stationary turn (up from ridiculous 0.1).
Laenfa +1 on blue +0.5 on white.
Sly +0.5 on GGs (up from 0.1).

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:57 am
by Ophiuchus
Oberlus wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:08 pm Ramscoop +2 fuel per stationary turn (up from ridiculous 0.1).
Laenfa +1 on blue +0.5 on white.
Sly +0.5 on GGs (up from 0.1).
i agree mostly. maybe also ramscoop only +1 fuel.

i strongly guess those fuel bonus should depend on fuel efficiency, though. dunno. like bad fuel efficiency ships take 2-4 turns for getting 1 fuel with ramscoop. i think applying the current factors is simple, but may be high (great fuel efficiency is four times as good). anyway, we could try that - putting a ramscoop on a light ship is quite an investment.

so i guess i suggest use:
  • ramscoop +1 (and Laenfa +1 on blue) fuel for good efficiency ships per turn and +1.5/+0.5/+0.25 for great/average/bad efficiency ships.
  • Lanefa on white (and Sly on GG) +0.5 for good efficiency ships per turn and +0.75/+0.5/+0.25 for great/average/bad efficiency ships.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:26 am
by LienRag
I could agree to half the Ophiuchus values...
His full values make being out of supply way too easy.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:42 am
by Ophiuchus
LienRag wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:26 am I could agree to half the Ophiuchus values...
His full values make being out of supply way too easy.
you could be right. but i think only if we playtest we will understand the effect fully. so i would rather go by my values and nerf if we find its too much.

i am sure half the values is not OP for the ramscoop. and i think my full values are also not OP. so lets go with the full values first.

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:57 am
by Oberlus
Yes, +2 for Ramscoop is too much compared with what we get with Zero-Point Fuel part.

Current refuelling effects do not consider fuel efficiency as of now, right?
I think it makes a lot of sense that high fuel efficiency hulls refuel faster than low fuel efficiency.

Factors for fuel efficiency are 0.6, 1, 2 and 4.
That the smaller hulls have a x8 better fuel efficiency than the bigger ones is too much of a difference I think, at least for refuelling if not for target meters.
I preferred 0.5, 1, 2 and 3, but I recall you had your reasons for those values. Could we use this latter factors for fuel refuelling?
A Ramscoop with base +1 fuel, a ship stopped for two turns would refuel:
- Bad: 1 jump (needs to stop 66% of the time)
- Average: 2 jumps (needs to stop 50% of the time)
- Good: 4 (needs to stop 33% of the time)
- Great: 6 (needs to stop 25% of the time)

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:01 am
by Ophiuchus
Oberlus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:57 am I preferred 0.5, 1, 2 and 3, but I recall you had your reasons for those values. Could we use this latter factors for fuel refuelling?
no objection

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:09 am
by Ophiuchus
One idea: we could add a line to ship design info (the one shown in the designer)

In the species dependend part: "Refuel capacity per turn: XXX fuel. It takes X turns to fully refuel this vessel if empty.".

Re: Why were laenfa buffed?

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:28 pm
by LienRag
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:42 am you could be right. but i think only if we playtest we will understand the effect fully. so i would rather go by my values and nerf if we find its too much.
Good method.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:57 am Factors for fuel efficiency are 0.6, 1, 2 and 4.
That the smaller hulls have a x8 better fuel efficiency than the bigger ones is too much of a difference I think, at least for refuelling if not for target meters.
I preferred 0.5, 1, 2 and 3, but I recall you had your reasons for those values. Could we use this latter factors for fuel refuelling?
A Ramscoop with base +1 fuel, a ship stopped for two turns would refuel:
- Bad: 1 jump (needs to stop 66% of the time)
- Average: 2 jumps (needs to stop 50% of the time)
- Good: 4 (needs to stop 33% of the time)
- Great: 6 (needs to stop 25% of the time)
Way too confusing to use two different scales for the same characteristic, imho.