Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

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Ophiuchus
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Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

This discussion is for freeorion 0.5 timeline:
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm I've been thinking (but not commenting) for a long time that fuel mechanics are a bit extreme: some hulls have enormous amounts of fuel while others can barely jump 1 hop outside of their supply.
Yes, that was part of the idea. Huge ships are simply not for out of supply. Make sure you take care of your supply network.

And "extreme" was also the idea - the difference should be noticable - else we do not need fuel efficiency at all.

I do not think there is a problem.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm progression of fuel efficiency: 50%, 100%, 200%, 400% (IIRC).
What about 100%, 150%, 200% and 300%? So that one fuel tank always gives 1 hop even to the largest hulls (I find that quite reasonable given how expensive/rare are internal slots).
I would be ok for 1 hop for the basic fuel tank if we add extra hops in galaxy generation in order to double the distances.

To get rid of floating fuel we could also allow the fuel tank to be added only if your fuel tech is advanced enough to give you an advantage (hm.. probably not). And/or we round down fuel.

I would also be ok to change the first-hop-does-not-take-fuel and drop fuel for the huge hulls down to zero (probably adding internal slots) - so you cant jump somewhere where you cant get back. That would give the option to distinguish between out-of-supply (storm attack) and in-supply (either defense or after securing supply) designs.
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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#2 Post by Oberlus »

I've been fiddling with fuel efficiency, and I realize I don't understand how it works. I did this:

Code: Select all

GREAT_FUEL_EFFICIENCY
'''[[HULL_FUEL_EFFICIENCY_EFFECTSGROUP(GREAT, 3)]]
'''

GOOD_FUEL_EFFICIENCY
'''[[HULL_FUEL_EFFICIENCY_EFFECTSGROUP(GOOD, 2)]]
'''

AVERAGE_FUEL_EFFICIENCY
'''[[HULL_FUEL_EFFICIENCY_EFFECTSGROUP(AVERAGE, 1)]]
'''

BAD_FUEL_EFFICIENCY
'''[[HULL_FUEL_EFFICIENCY_EFFECTSGROUP(BAD, 0.5)]]
'''
With base fuel of medium hull 3 and large hull 2, both set to AVERAGE_FUEL_EFFICIENCY, I got the following:

Large hull without fuel tank: 2 = +2 from hull and +0 from average fuel efficiency.
Large hull with fuel tank: 2.5 = +2 from hull +0.5 from tank and +0 from average fuel efficiency.

Medium hull without fuel tank: 3 = +3 from hull and +0 from average fuel efficiency.
Medium hull with fuel tank: 3 = +3 from hull +0.5 from tank and -0.5 from average fuel efficiency.

Why the fuel efficiency gives -0.5 to the tank on the medium hull and 0 to the tank on the large hull?

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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:17 am I've been fiddling with fuel efficiency, and I realize I don't understand how it works. I did this:
You should read the original threads for the reasoning of the current values.
  • fuel effects e.g. by fuel tank part and fuel tech add up hull max fuel (e.g. at default priority)
  • fuel efficiency effect multiplies current hull max fuel by fuel efficiency multiplier (late prio)
  • fuel hull effect adds hull fuel value to hull max fuel (no fuel efficiency, even later prio)
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:17 am With base fuel of medium hull 3 and large hull 2, both set to AVERAGE_FUEL_EFFICIENCY, I got the following:
...
Why the fuel efficiency gives -0.5 to the tank on the medium hull and 0 to the tank on the large hull?
Shouldnt (screenshot or didnt happen ;) )
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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:33 pm Shouldnt (screenshot or didnt happen ;) )
I'll post it when I get back to that computer. Meanwhile: it did happen. So I guess I found some kind of bug?

/Edit: I replicated changes mentioned above in my Windows machine and it's working as expected, medium hulls gets 3 without tank and 3.5 with tank. Hmmm.../

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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#5 Post by Oberlus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:44 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:33 pm Shouldnt (screenshot or didnt happen ;) )
I'll post it when I get back to that computer. Meanwhile: it did happen. So I guess I found some kind of bug?

/Edit: I replicated changes mentioned above in my Windows machine and it's working as expected, medium hulls gets 3 without tank and 3.5 with tank. Hmmm.../
Well, it seems it didn't happen. I came to take the screenshots but it's working just fine now.

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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#6 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:59 am This discussion is for freeorion 0.5 timeline:
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm I've been thinking (but not commenting) for a long time that fuel mechanics are a bit extreme: some hulls have enormous amounts of fuel while others can barely jump 1 hop outside of their supply.
Yes, that was part of the idea. Huge ships are simply not for out of supply. Make sure you take care of your supply network.

And "extreme" was also the idea - the difference should be noticable - else we do not need fuel efficiency at all.

Indeed.

A minimum supply of One should nonetheless be the norm - there would still be a difference going deeper out of supply.
0,5 supply is confusing, especially to new players (it took me time enough to understand supply and fuel as it was in 0.4.8).

With non-cramped galaxy settings (50 systems or more by player) there is enough free space for fuel capacity to make a difference.

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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:11 am A minimum supply of One should nonetheless be the norm - there would still be a difference going deeper out of supply.
Your probably mean one fuel. The question/problem is not minimum one fuel. The question is the scaling of reach using tank parts. Going 1 hop per tank part heavy hulls almost do not rely on supply network anymore (going back to what it was before). That should be a rather late tech. But not so heavy hulls should have access to extra fuel beforehand.
LienRag wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:11 am 0,5 supply is confusing, especially to new players (it took me time enough to understand supply and fuel as it was in 0.4.8).
Your probably mean 0.5 fuel. What you think about the solutions i proposed (rounding down fractions so there is no x.y fuel anymore (besides refuelling), marking ship designs which do not have enough fuel tank bonus to do full jumps as partly functional, changing the one-hop-is-free-dynamic)? Also fractional part of fuel could be shown in a different way in the UI. E.g. showing a small ratio bar behind the number of hops. If we separate number of hops and excess fuel we could also go back and split fuel and the number of hops you can do. But probably it is enough to do that in the design UI.

I think the one-hop-is-free is also very confusing by the way.

I really think adding more empty systems is the best way to start removing fractionals here. Star patches could be more clustered or there could be a highway (almost every hop a planet) in the middle of the spirals arms, but with patchy stuff to the side. Exploration along stretches/patchy parts would be less fast and not so easy to invade by heavy hulls. This tweaking should make it possible to rescale fuel capacity of the tank part to one (and average efficiency hull getting a single hop out of it).

And on the extreme fuel of the small hull - i think the answer to stopping scouts is corvettes, not fuel reach. Maybe we need a cheaper corvette though - probably a cheaper early game external part weapon which is able to sink a scout in a single combat; 2damage, 10PP, no upgrades.
Or less fuel and a better routing/refill mechanic. You must be able to set routes which are out-of-fuel to minimize the micro management chore. Also the automatic exploration could split into close/deep automatic exploration.

Or we simply improve the ship design UI and encyclopedia entries - showing tank parts' effect (part count*tech modifier) next to hull efficiency and effective hops.
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Re: Fuel efficiency/base tank 1 hop? [0005xx]

#8 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:45 am
Your probably mean one fuel.
Indeed, my bad.
Too tired and busy to answer your questions now, sorry.

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