Small Robotic Hull

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wobbly
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Small Robotic Hull

#1 Post by wobbly »

Reason to add: The lack of an economical troop and colony hull results in players always adding the organic line.

Super rough sketch: 1 internal, 1 external, 80 structure, 3 fuel, 200% fuel efficency, PP cost to match up with flux troopers.

Edit: Alternative design - 2 internal, no external, 2 fuel, base detection 50. This design doesn't allow vettes and carriers but allows a flux lance + robotic interference shield.

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Vezzra
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#2 Post by Vezzra »

Seconded, sounds reasonable.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

I dont think mix and match is a bad thing (e.g. organic+robotic, flux+robotic), but probably each "theme" should have some okayish options for (almost) all roles.

I think we could add such a hull, but it should be less cost efficient than the flux hulls in some metrics. (Could also mean RP cost)
Robotic line opens up the future great combat hulls while flux hulls is a dead end.

We could nerf organic hull slightly? (I dont think we should)

I would prefer a two or three internal slots hull.

The base comparison should be the medium hull:
medium basic hull is 20PP two external, two internal, structure 10, good fuel efficiency (200%), fuel 3, speed 60

So a suggestion without changing something else:
three internal slots, 15PP, structure 10, robotic repair, good fuel efficiency (200%), fuel 2, speed 75 (maybe only average fuel efficiency)

So a 25% cheaper, faster colonizer/troop carrier. Extra fuel option. Downside: cant be hardened, but the robotic hull has plenty of external slots. And for shock troops you can use a robotic hull with four troops. Not a good scout option, but small hull anyway is legit.

more robotic would be only two internal slots, but i think that is harder to balance

is this good enough for ignoring organic hulls?
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wobbly
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#4 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:46 pm I dont think mix and match is a bad thing (e.g. organic+robotic, flux+robotic), but probably each "theme" should have some okayish options for (almost) all roles.

I think we could add such a hull, but it should be less cost efficient than the flux hulls in some metrics. (Could also mean RP cost)
Robotic line opens up the future great combat hulls while flux hulls is a dead end.

We could nerf organic hull slightly? (I dont think we should)

I would prefer a two or three internal slots hull.
I agree with all this. It's fine to pick up Organics when you are using Robotics, you just shouldn't be stuck with mediums if you don't. I'd almost like a cyborg line(robotic cross organic) but the dead hulls are sitting in that spot.

I wouldn't make it high RP. This was the problem with Flux when it was in the robot line. Once it costs more to research then symbiots then it has to compete with them. I'd prefer cheap RP, ok-ish hull. I was thinking something like 12 RP with pre-reqs of Nanotech Production and Robotic Hull. Far enough down the tree to leave medium hulls some space while still being easy enough to reach. Some fluff about miniaturization through tech advances.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:46 pm So a suggestion without changing something else:
three internal slots, 15PP, structure 10, robotic repair, good fuel efficiency (200%), fuel 2, speed 75 (maybe only average fuel efficiency)

is this good enough for ignoring organic hulls?
Yeah that works for me. I'd probably go with average fuel efficiency if its 3 internals, poor fuel range is following the robot theme. A quick look at the maths seems to suggest thats about the same cost as bubble colony ships and about the same cost/troop as the spatial flux.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:46 pm Not a good scout option, but small hull anyway is legit.
Yeah small hulls cover scouts and corvettes just fine. The one possibility I thought was interesting here was to give it a +detection bonus based on tech, similar to flux's +stealth bonus. This would allow for a short range stealth scout as it has the internals for a cloaking part. I guess there's also the option of detection = 0 + detection tech, which would leave them with always less then a pure scout.

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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:40 am Yeah small hulls cover scouts and corvettes just fine. The one possibility I thought was interesting here was to give it a +detection bonus based on tech, similar to flux's +stealth bonus. This would allow for a short range stealth scout as it has the internals for a cloaking part. I guess there's also the option of detection = 0 + detection tech, which would leave them with always less then a pure scout.
i think it would become too useful/broad purpose. the design is already taking away reason to go the flux line.
so I'd say if you want stealthy high-distance scouts, go for organic, flux or asteroid.

and yes, it can work as a stealthy low-distance hidden scout.

the thing which bothers me is that it takes away the last role of medium hulls i think. i like an idea that all the hulls will be best at something - and the medium hull was an ok troop carrier for minimal infrastructure (i.e. basic shipyard), so can be spawned rather easily anywhere.
Some ideas to keep some specific purpose for the medium hull:
  • maybe some military or economic policy which allows to build basic ship hulls everywhere without a shipyard? this policy could also enable the transformer and decrease stargate use cost and maybe increase infrastructure (some like "Premium Imperial Services"). Should take some turns before being able to use it (same as building a basic shipyard).
  • or requiring a certain shipyard for the robotic hull
OTOH from UI perspective it is good for the that you can obsolete parts/hulls in order to keep the build list relevant.
I was sometimes switching obsoletion of hulls when getting in the situation of having to build without a better shipyard available close (on the frontier or in a war) - this works ok but it is not great UI.

I think making each hull the best at something is a work of love in a sense - each hull is special and in some situations it may shine again, even if you have much more sophisticated options. players will find a clever way to use it and may appreciate the opportunity/the hull a bit more.
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Oberlus
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Making basic hulls obsolete is a pleasure.
The only good thing about basic hulls should be that they don't require advanced shipyards.

wobbly
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#7 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 am i think it would become too useful/broad purpose. the design is already taking away reason to go the flux line.
so I'd say if you want stealthy high-distance scouts, go for organic, flux or asteroid.

and yes, it can work as a stealthy low-distance hidden scout.
ok, then we just go simple.
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 am the thing which bothers me is that it takes away the last role of medium hulls i think. i like an idea that all the hulls will be best at something - and the medium hull was an ok troop carrier for minimal infrastructure (i.e. basic shipyard), so can be spawned rather easily anywhere.
I've used Medium hulls before when I've had Ugmors and no advanced shipyard. Perhaps Ugmors could dislike dry docks just to annoy LienRag. (only a half-joke, forcing Ugmor troops on to mediums and asteroids could be ok)
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 am Some ideas to keep some specific purpose for the medium hull:
  • maybe some military or economic policy which allows to build basic ship hulls everywhere without a shipyard? this policy could also enable the transformer and decrease stargate use cost and maybe increase infrastructure (some like "Premium Imperial Services"). Should take some turns before being able to use it (same as building a basic shipyard).
  • or requiring a certain shipyard for the robotic hull
Mostly I agree with Oberlus. However if you wanted to extend the life of base hulls I think it would be simpler to up the investment cost (in PP) of dry docks, which may be an idea anyway considering they are repair bases. I think orbital incubators are fine, it takes 8 turn to put them down after all.

wobbly
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#8 Post by wobbly »

Draft version. I'm not an artist so its currently using the generic hull icon.

https://github.com/MichaelCourtney/free ... 83cefd84ea

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Oberlus
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Re: Small Robotic Hull

#9 Post by Oberlus »

I find it weird that I can't put armor or any weapon apart from flux lance, but I say let's merge that as soon as someone contributes a new hull art?

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