Streamlined Colonization

[Dilvish]

What if a planet is supply-connected to two empires? Which one gets dibs if both start building the colony on the same turn?

I had thought the plan was simply to allow a colonization building to be built on an already-owned outpost. Allowing a build on an unowned planet would involve the "remote construction" that I understand had previously been problematic, though I expect the problems are solvable. As for your particular question, I would think the resolution could be a bit like how it is if two new honeybee queens are maturing at the same time in a hive -- first one out tracks down the others and kills them in their cells-- i.e., when the first one is finished any others go poof (should be scriptable, though much simpler and perhaps good enough is to simply have any unfinished ones halt progress). If multiple different ones are finished on the same turn they all self destruct (or it could be random which survives, that's sort of how it is with the queen bees). That would create a significant incentive to park a warship over such a contested planet (or otherwise blockade it) to prevent an enemy's progress, which seems fine and good to me.

[vincele]

I personally also quite like the concept of colony ship, I would certainly miss something if they were not present in the game. I'm not against the very advanced-tech building allowing in-supply autobuild, but not at the cost of removing the colony ship concept, it is important in my opinion.

The game is not about space combat only, it is about colonization. So we have to have concrete things to do that colonizing thing. And those things are where the player's decisions will have an impact on the outcome. For example, at game start, someone can choose to colonize the first planet he met which has positive suitability, to reap early profit (growth), someone else may wait a few turns more to explore a bit and find a better planet (bigger, better environment). That is a major undertaking, if you wait you take the risk of being blitzkrieg'd, if you go too quickly, you may let a very good planet available for your opponents to take.

I think the same about the concept of outposts, this is player's way of choosing his strategy: explore-mostly (scouts and FoW-dependent) or explore-and-grow-supply (more expensive, but better visibility, easier travel, etc...), or a mix of the 2. I even think those ships are too expensive (almost as much as a colony ship), maybe having 2 kinds of outpost ships : one cheap short-ranged, no tech required (allowed only 2 jumps away from supply), and one not range-limited (unlimited fuel), expensive, some advanced tech-needed, or something like that. I prefer to wait a few turns more and have a colony ship rather than an outpost-only one. Only for Gas-giant-only systems where supply is needed.

Later in the game, when empire is better established, I build colony ships in batches on my colonize-capable species planets, and when a batch is built, I go to objectwnd, sort uncolonized planets by suitability, and order colony ships from there. When each one arrives at destination, I click on the sitrep msg link which goes to the right system and I can click the colonize button. I think the micromanagement problem is sufficiently tamed down so it does not bother me at all doing it like that.

@Vezzra : look at my posted patch, I took some choices wrt, ship selection, fleet splitting, etc...

[Vezzra]

I get the impression that my suggestion has been misunderstood, at least partially. Maybe I've used the phrase "throw out the colony ship" a bit too strongly, because people seem concerned that colonization will become something intangible, without having to build and send ships, just producing a building on an empty planet.

So, let me be absolutely clear on that matter: I do not propose to change the colonization mechanic into something that doesn't involve sending ships, and just "remote construct" a colony building. In that regard I'm absolutely with vincele, for all the reasons he cited. As I already said, I'm not sold on the idea of "Colonization Centers" et al.

When I refer to "colony ship" (and that we should throw it out), I specifically meant the colony ship in its current form/with its current function. I use the term to distinguish it from what we now call "outpost ship". What I want to suggest in essence is, that we of course keep colony ships, but change how they work. Instead of having to decide the species of a colony at enqueue time of the colony ship (which is IMO the main source of all the ensueing micromanagement later on), you now can decide the species after the initial outpost has been created (by selecting the corresponding colony building). Which relieves you from having to keep track of where to enqueue your colony ships and which colony ship was intended to go where.

In short, what we now call "colony ship" would become what now is the "outpost ship", and the outpost ship would be removed. You would have only "colony ships", which can create outposts on empty planets, which in turn can then be upgraded to full blown colonies. So instead of: enqueue colony ship, wait, send colony ship to planet, wait, colonize, you have: enqueue colony ship, wait, send colony ship to planet, wait, colonize, enqueue colony building. One more step, but instead of having to select the proper species at the first step, you can select it at the last step. (@Dilvish: What do you think, how hard would it be to adjust the AI if the mechanic would be changed that way?)

And, best of all, we can quite easy test that approach, because that can all be done by just adapting content scripts. Remove the outpost ship part, change the functionality of the colony ship part into what the outpost ship part had done, adjust the predefined ship designs and the colony ship you get at the start accordingly, add a colony building for each species that can colonize, and we're done. I guess the by far hardest part will be to adjust the AI to the changed mechanics.

That's why I came up with this proposal. It's comparatively easy and quick to implement, so we can test and play around with it, to get a feeling how it really changes things. How well it solves the issues we have now, which of these issues aren't affected and maybe need to be addressed by other means etc. It might only turn out as a first step in an even more thorough process to revise the colonization mechanics, but we don't need to do everything at once. That's why I'd suggest to leave out ideas like Colonization Centers and the like, basically everything that would require to code up "remote construction" (something which Geoff isn't that eager to introduce, according to one of his posts earlier in this thread, and I agree with him), for now. It requires much more effort to implement, and we can still do that in another step.

The other thing I perceived as a major concern was the loss of the ability to create colonies out of supply range. While I'd be curious how restricting colonization to planets within supply range would affect gameplay, we don't need to go there in the first step. We can keep what is now the colony ship, I'd just name it differently ("Colony Ark" or something that conveys the idea of a huge ship filled with pioneer colonists willing to venture into deep space to found a new world far from the reaches of their home), and give it some drawback that makes it the exotic alternative to the standard method of colonization (e.g. substantially more expensive, or just 0.1 pop on a newly created colony, etc.).

I even consider to unlock that kind of colonization through a tech, so you'd had to invest some RP to be able to do that (which would be the reverse of what has been suggested by several people, to make upgrading outposts to full colonies or other, less micromanagy ways for colonization something that you can unlock by some midgame tech). It doesn't have to be too hard to get, just something extra stuff you shouldn't get completely for free.

I hope I've been able to address the concerns expressed by above (very elaborate) clarification.

One thing that also has already been said (more than once IIRC) is that the idea of having unlockable (by research) ways of colonization for the main purpose of avoiding micromanagement is a very bad idea. Requiring the player to spend RP to avoid micromanagement means having to decide between playing a less optimal or less tedious game. That's why it makes much more sense for me to make the possibility to have a enhanced colony ship which can create full blown colonies outside supply range something you'd have to research first. Because that would enable you to do something you weren't able to do before, and has nothing to do with reducing micromanagement.

[Vezzra]

1. Starting the game with a colony ship is a good start into the game. It drops the player right into the action of conquering space. Don't underestimate the first impressions of a new player!

Well, of course you keep your initial colony ship. It'd just work a bit differently.

[Vezzra]

Later in the game, when empire is better established, I build colony ships in batches on my colonize-capable species planets, and when a batch is built, I go to objectwnd, sort uncolonized planets by suitability, and order colony ships from there. When each one arrives at destination, I click on the sitrep msg link which goes to the right system and I can click the colonize button. I think the micromanagement problem is sufficiently tamed down so it does not bother me at all doing it like that.

Well, of course, that's one way of dealing with the problem, but it's not very resource efficient (colony ships are expensive, and thanks to our PP cost increasing mechanics, in case of colony ships even two are at work). Although their costs is, in comparison, not so high as in the beginning, they remain a not negligible investment, even in late game. So you alleviate the problem by playing a less optimal game (not so much a problem against the AI, but against a human player that might become a problem).

Which is exactly the thing we want to avoid when making this game. When a mechanic turns out that way, we're dealing with a design flaw. As is obviously the case here

[Dilvish]

@Dilvish: What do you think, how hard would it be to adjust the AI if the mechanic would be changed that way?

Off the top of my head, it doesn't seem like it should be too bad.

Remove the outpost ship part, change the functionality of the colony ship part into what the outpost ship part had done...

Eh? That's a lot of unnecessary changes, particularly if there winds up being an unlockable colony pod. Just leave the parts alone and let the player start with an Outpost Ship rather than a Colony Ship-- you still get to claim territory per Sloth's concern, and I really don't think anyone's objections really hinge on what the ship is called. Simply don't have the colony pod be initially unlocked, and if you prefer the default design using it can be called a Colony Ark as you suggested.

[Vezzra]

Eh? That's a lot of unnecessary changes, particularly if there winds up being an unlockable colony pod. Just leave the parts alone and let the player start with an Outpost Ship rather than a Colony Ship-- you still get to claim territory per Sloth's concern, and I really don't think anyone's objections really hinge on what the ship is called. Simply don't have the colony pod be initially unlocked, and if you prefer the default design using it can be called a Colony Ark as you suggested.

Well, yeah, of course my description has been a bit sloppy, that's probably not how we'll end up doing it. Actually it's just a rename, because personally I'd prefer to call the thing you normally use for colonization "colony ship", but these are details that are actually a matter of taste anyway. If the majority prefers to keep the current labels, I can probably live with it

[Geoff the Medio]

...having unlockable (by research) ways of colonization for the main purpose of avoiding micromanagement is a very bad idea.

Presumably it would also have strategic advantages to be used, such as costing less or taking less time.

...have a enhanced colony ship which can create full blown colonies outside supply range something you'd have to research first.

Given issues that have been raised about low-planet and low-starlane galaxies already being rather difficult to get sufficient supply line spread, this could be a problem in some galaxies to not be able to do by default... Although perhaps that's fine, if it's not too far into the tree to research.

[MatGB]

OK, to break the idea down smaller.

New building type, which will need scripting on a one-per-species level but needn't really display as such to the player except by name.

It takes, say, 5 turns to build, can only be built on Outposts, and when created populates the planet with X amount of the selected species.

The existing colony pod can stay, but colonisation of existing outposts becomes a LOT easier/viable and making choices for colonisation thus becomes less micromanagy, you can build outpost ships in advance of finding a good location then turn them into colonies for a decent species.

Ergo, although the "ark"/"generation ship" is still buildable, it becomes less strategically/tactically useful as it's a bigger pain.

I like that. I like the ability to turn outposts into colonies without new ships, it, for a start, makes certain other effects more viable. You'd need the outpost to be in supply and they gain less supply than most colonised planets.

However, i'd leave the starting colony ship as just that, in the very early game, when colonisatino itself is more "fun", you're regularly out of supply with early colonies and need to go get decent tech, etc. This suits my view on how things "would" work in reality as well, it's the early days and people take bigger risks, etc. I'd have the existing pod start at 1 as now, have the outpost upgrader start at 2, and then possibly improve if you get cryonics, or rethink the cryonic pod a bit.

Definitely don't reduce starting for any colony below 1, that takes long enough to be viable as it is with the growth mechanics.

[Vezzra]

Presumably it would also have strategic advantages to be used, such as costing less or taking less time.

Well, yes and no, the problem is, I get the feeling that these advantages are just "tacked on" to have something besides the "micromanagement reduction" purpose for such techs. But this purpose, micromanagement reduction, is still the main one - the main point is not to have an alternative, more efficient way of colonizing (faster/cheaper), but to provide the player with something that helps reducing micromanagement. And that's the wrong approach IMO.

Because it still confronts the player with the decision either to research these techs or to have to put up with increasing micromanagement, regardless if he wants to invest in cheaper/faster methods for colonizing. Maybe a player wants to take a different path and invest his research efforts in other areas, at the cost of having to invest more time/PP for colonization. In that case, he would also have to deal with increasing micromanagement, unless he is willing to research the techs that give him the means to avoid this micromanagement.

IMO a game mechanic that practically forces you to research certain techs unless you are willing to put up with increased micromanagement should be considered a design flaw - regardless of what else these techs might give you.

Given issues that have been raised about low-planet and low-starlane galaxies already being rather difficult to get sufficient supply line spread, this could be a problem in some galaxies to not be able to do by default... Although perhaps that's fine, if it's not too far into the tree to research.

I'd say lets try it. My suggestion is to just swap the outpost and colony pod in the tech tree. Currently the colony pod is preunlocked, and the outpost module is unlocked by a very cheap early game tech, which you can get in just a few turns. Make the outpost module the preunlocked item and the colony pod unlocked by that tech (of course the name and description of the tech will need to be adjusted accordingly).

If that still is too much trouble in low planets/low starlane settings, we can just preunlock both ship parts.

[Vezzra]

New building type, which will need scripting on a one-per-species level but needn't really display as such to the player except by name.

Well, I don't know what you mean by "needn't really display as such to the player except by name", but yeah, that's the idea. We'll end up with "Human Colony", "Trith Colony", "Gysache Colony", "Scylior Colony", etc. buildings. BTW, is there a way to only show those Colony buildings in the producible items list for species that you have in your empire and that are within supply range? That might reduce the clutter in this list.

It takes, say, 5 turns to build, can only be built on Outposts, and when created populates the planet with X amount of the selected species.

Yep, exactly.

The existing colony pod can stay, but colonisation of existing outposts becomes a LOT easier/viable and making choices for colonisation thus becomes less micromanagy, you can build outpost ships in advance of finding a good location then turn them into colonies for a decent species.

That's the idea

Ergo, although the "ark"/"generation ship" is still buildable, it becomes less strategically/tactically useful as it's a bigger pain.

It shouldn't not be used because it's a bigger pain to use (because micromanagement prone), but because it's more expensive/less effective (in whatever way) than the upgrade outpost method for planets within supply range.

If we decide to keep the colony ship (which very much looks like the general consensus), then it should serve a special purpose: creating colonies outside supply range. After all, that seems to be the main reason why people want to keep it.

However, i'd leave the starting colony ship as just that, in the very early game, when colonisatino itself is more "fun", you're regularly out of supply with early colonies and need to go get decent tech, etc.

Personally I'd prefer to give the player what is considered "standard equipment" at the start - and that would be the outpost ship. The colony ship is the special case thing, and as I said in my post above, I'd like to try just to swap the outpost and colony module in the tech tree. That should make the colony pod/colony ship available easily enough.

If during playtesting this really turns out to kill the fun that much at game start, we can easily switch back.

This suits my view on how things "would" work in reality as well, it's the early days and people take bigger risks, etc.

On the other hand, you could also say that first building outposts that serve as a starting point for building a full colony (which need to be in supply range) would be the first colonization method available. Being able to build ships that can carry enough colonists and all the required equipment to deploy a completely self sustaining colony beyond your supply lines would be the more advanced method that should require at least a bit research first...

I'd have the existing pod start at 1 as now, have the outpost upgrader start at 2and then possibly improve if you get cryonics, or rethink the cryonic pod a bit.

Definitely don't reduce starting for any colony below 1, that takes long enough to be viable as it is with the growth mechanics.

I don't think it's necessary to give the outpost upgrader 2 initial pop, that would be too much IMO. If you don't want to reduce the colony pod below 1, just make it more expensive (and maybe also more time consuming to build) than outpost module + colony upgrade building. Cryonics can stay as it is now, it gives you a colony pod with higher capacity. For the colony buildings we can introduce some techs that gives you upgraded versions of these, which will give you higher initial pop - or tie that also to the Cryonics tech.

[Vezzra]

So finally I got around to implement my ideas. I've posted a patch for playtesting here.