Ships: Supply

[eleazar]

I'm going to try that narrowing-down, establishing common ground thing. The following ideas should be applicable with various fuel/resupply implementations. If there's general agreement on these ideas, it should make further details easier to hammer out.

Of course any implementation needs to follow this:

Remember to keep solutions simple. We don't want a solution that takes too much micromanagement.

• if distance is measured for ship travel or resupply it should be measured in Starlane Nodes (SLN).
— because it's an exceptionally obvious & intuitive unit of measurement
— because travel that stops half-way through a StarLane is meaningless and is not (or should not) be allowed.

• "Stranded" ships should have some chance or means to become un-stranded.

• Resupply/Refueling (if included) should happen automatically. I.E. there will be no "Refuel/Resupply" button that needs to be pressed to keep a fleet at peak performance.
— because there's no good strategy in choosing to have an unfueled fleet.

[Geoff the Medio]

• if distance is measured for ship travel or resupply it should be measured in Starlane Nodes (SLN).

I'd prefer "Starlane Jumps". "Nodes" are points, whereas "jumps" are more clearly a distance being travelled. It will be clearer that a system is two starlane jumps away from another than it would be about how many nodes away it would be (do you count the end points? just one end point? just the node in the middle?).

Jumps might be a bit less clear in the case of fleets partway along a lane in a multi-turn jump, but we can disable any supply receiving or giving (by mobile supply points) that aren't in a system for a whole turn.

The effects system also already refers to "jumps".

[eleazar]

• if distance is measured for ship travel or resupply it should be measured in Starlane Nodes (SLN).

I'd prefer "Starlane Jumps"...

Sure, that's a better, more obvious term.
I wasn't trying to choose the in-game label, just trying to confirm a concept, i.e. counting jumps rather than a linear measure of distance traveled.

Jumps might be a bit less clear in the case of fleets partway along a lane in a multi-turn jump, but we can disable any supply receiving or giving (by mobile supply points) that aren't in a system for a whole turn.

For a fleet in the middle of a SL (StarLane), the important measurement is turns till it's arrival.
It won't use fuel or ammo supplies while in a SL, therefore it can't get stuck in an SL, or need resupply.
Besides, i believe the concept of SLs is that ships which don't enter together never meet— that's why battles happen only in systems, not in the middle of SLs.

[marhawkman]

I'll compare to the Moo2 way to show why the Moo2 way is far superior.

1: fuel is just a number. It shows how much time your ship has before needing refuel.

3: the games have an easy to comprehend graph that shows the amount of fuel remaining. you can easily see how much fuel there is left, and tell at a glance when you need to send your ships to resupply.

4: resupply is automatic. simply moving your ship to a properly equipped planet will fill it up to full. both games have "manual" resupply methods but these are only used if one of your ships runs out.

I hate the idea of managing the refueling of hundreds of ships.

that's why the refueling process is automatic. The only decision you(normally) need to make is when to send the ship/s back to refuel.

In Moo2:
Fuel is range able to be travelled from home. You don't need to worry about refueling ever.

Alternatively, it gives you the option to build fuel tankers(something NOT modeled by MoO2) that are large enough to carry enough fuel to resupply an entire fleet. thus allowing you to have a fleet temporarily extend it's range to far beyond the normal range of your ship technology.

2: ships that are "running on empty" can still move. It's just REALLY slow.

Yeah, so they might as well be stopped, a useless feature. Only incompitent ship captains would allow there ships to run out of fuel or not have enough fuel to get back.

In Moo2:
Ships don't run out of fuel. With this safety feature built in ships will never get stranded.

Stranding ships isn't necessarily a useless ability. If you aren't planning on having the ship return, what good is it's remaining fuel?

[Geoff the Medio]

I should have done this earlier, but here are some links to some previous, relevant threads for this discussion:

Fuel
Fleet Resupply

and, since it was brought up in passing:

Exploration

[utilae]

that's why the refueling process is automatic. The only decision you(normally) need to make is when to send the ship/s back to refuel.

Any decision is another decision, that I for one would prefer to not have to make every little tiny decision that can be simplified out of the game.

Alternatively, it gives you the option to build fuel tankers(something NOT modeled by MoO2) that are large enough to carry enough fuel to resupply an entire fleet. thus allowing you to have a fleet temporarily extend it's range to far beyond the normal range of your ship technology.

This is a feature that I believe could compliment and improve the Moo2 system.

Stranding ships isn't necessarily a useless ability. If you aren't planning on having the ship return, what good is it's remaining fuel?

Ok, I agree. A colony ship doesn't need to return, and this is where it is a good idea to be able to turn the 'safety' off.



Behold:
"The Improved Moo2 Supply and Fuel System"
This system is based on the Moo2 fuel system, though with some additions. The system uses the concept of ships having fuel and using fuel, but this is all hidden from the player, and it appears as though movement is based on some fuel range to the player, and thus it is very simple for the player. I describe this system as working the way Moo2 works in its core form, on the basis of 'this is how I think the Moo2 system works under the hood'.

Factors
Ships have a certain fuel range (distance to a star system) based on one main factor, overall fuel technology; a second factor, components (eg fuel tanks); and other factors, eg support ships, ship size using less fuel, etc.

Resupply Points
First: Resupply points. A resupply point is a means to refuel ships, replenish supplies, crew, ammo. A resupply point is an allied colony/outpost/millitary base (refills fuel to full), an allied ship (adds fuel bonus while in fleet, eg tanker), or specials/events (eg planet with fuel crystals, etc). Eg, after discovering that an unallied system has fuel crystals, it extends fuel range upon travelling there.

Basic Movement Rules
When moving fleets, ships are in 'safe mode' by default. As a result, a fleet can only move to an unallied system/discovered resupply point, only if the ship(s) in the fleet with the least fuel left can make it back to a friendly colonised system after moving there.

Safe mode can be turned off, because there are good cases for ships to not have to return to a colony. For example long range scouting, colony ships will never need to return to a colony. In the case that a ship is stranded, it becomes disabled until refueled. Ships disabled for long enough, will have all their crew die eventually. This depends on crew supply and survival technology/ship design.

Resupply
Ships can have there fuel resupplied by resupply points. This involves refueling all ships in a fleet completely. If this is not possible, then ships would be refueled based on some automated system, eg ships with the least fuel get fuel first, or on a priority basis setup somewhere by the player.

Ammo will be resupplied at millitary bases and colonies with millitary infrastructure (eg starbase, barracks, weapons factory, weapons store). Maybe with the proper technology, ammo can be replenished in other cases (eg a planet has certain materials that can be used for your missiles, etc), though this is an extra optional idea.

Resupply of new crew members, crew supplies, etc can occur at any place with people or supplies, generally any colony/stabase/millitary base.

The effects of running out of ammo are simple, they don't work. I don't see any further need for ammo to have to be constently in supply.

The effects of crew supplies or crew running low are optional. Perhaps this only comes into effect when a ship is stranded/disabled and can't get home, at which point crew supplies/crew members effect how long before they die.

[eleazar]

Ships have a certain fuel range (distance to a star system) based on one main factor, overall fuel technology; a second factor, components (eg fuel tanks); and other factors, eg support ships, ship size using less fuel, etc.

It's not clear if you proposed a similar "range" at which ammo can be acquired.



I have a New Proposal for Redistribution and Blockades, which though it doesn't answer all the questions in this thread, IMHO serves as a good foundation for the answers.

[utilae]

It's not clear if you proposed a similar "range" at which ammo can be acquired.

It would be done as stated below. Basically, if your ship visits a resupply point, eg millitary base, then ammo is refilled, like how in Moo2 you move your ship back to a colony, missiles are refilled.

Ammo will be resupplied at millitary bases and colonies with millitary infrastructure (eg starbase, barracks, weapons factory, weapons store). Maybe with the proper technology, ammo can be replenished in other cases (eg a planet has certain materials that can be used for your missiles, etc), though this is an extra optional idea.

[eleazar]

It's not clear if you proposed a similar "range" at which ammo can be acquired.

It would be done as stated below. Basically, if your ship visits a resupply point, eg millitary base, then ammo is refilled, like how in Moo2 you move your ship back to a colony, missiles are refilled.

Ammo will be resupplied at millitary bases and colonies with millitary infrastructure (eg starbase, barracks, weapons factory, weapons store). Maybe with the proper technology, ammo can be replenished in other cases (eg a planet has certain materials that can be used for your missiles, etc), though this is an extra optional idea.

I don't understand how this is at all like MoO1,2. Nor is it "all hidden from the player".
In MoO1,2 you can fly a scouts/border-patrols around at the periphery of the accessible stars forever without needed to visit a "supply point" to refuel.
If i understand your plan, scouts and patrols would need to visit colonies or tankers before fuel runs out. With your "safe mode" much of the time the only place you will be able to move a ship is back to a supply point. How in the world would it "appears as though movement is based on some fuel range to the player" if that "fuel range" is constantly changing size as fuel is consumed.

Either you are explaining it badly, and/or haven't really thought out how your proposal would work.

[utilae]

I don't understand how this is at all like MoO1,2. Nor is it "all hidden from the player".
In MoO1,2 you can fly a scouts/border-patrols around at the periphery of the accessible stars forever without needed to visit a "supply point" to refuel.
If i understand your plan, scouts and patrols would need to visit colonies or tankers before fuel runs out. With your "safe mode" much of the time the only place you will be able to move a ship is back to a supply point. How in the world would it "appears as though movement is based on some fuel range to the player" if that "fuel range" is constantly changing size as fuel is consumed.

Either you are explaining it badly, and/or haven't really thought out how your proposal would work.

Looking at the quote below:

When moving fleets, ships are in 'safe mode' by default. As a result, a fleet can only move to an unallied system/discovered resupply point, only if the ship(s) in the fleet with the least fuel left can make it back to a friendly colonised system after moving there.

Using 'safe mode', scouts and patrols can always move to an unexplored system. Once there, they may be restricted on moving further away, as it would leave them no fuel to get back.

Of course I can't say I remember even trying to move a ship between two close to colony stars endlessly, but there are ways to add that feature I guess.

[marhawkman]

I like it.

Another thing that bugged me was how you could only put one set of extra fuel tanks in a ship.

[utilae]

bugged me was how you could only put one set of extra fuel tanks in a ship.

What do you mean?

In ship design, I would assume you could put as many fuel tanks as the ship allows.

[marhawkman]

bugged me was how you could only put one set of extra fuel tanks in a ship.

What do you mean?

In ship design, I would assume you could put as many fuel tanks as the ship allows.

In MoO2 you can only put one of each special system in a ship.

[utilae]

In MoO2 you can only put one of each special system in a ship.

Ok, well I'd treat the component system similar to how Moo3 did it, in the way that for example fuel tanks could be installed in X units, eg have 5 Fuel Tanks.

[Sandlapper]

Okay, my two cents worth:

I like Tzlaine's amended propasal(from brainstorming thread):

1) R is the supply radius of any supply point; this may change based on tech.

2) Any fleet within R of a supply point is 100% supplied, in the absence of any privateers.

3) Any fleet at distance S (where R < S < 2 * R) can remain supplied as long as there are enough supply vessels to keep it in supply; there is a certain ratio of supply ships to fleet ships that is required for 100% supply. This also assumes no privateers are present.

4) The combat value (Cp) of every enemy privateer within raiding range of a fleet decreases the supply of that fleet by Cp times some factor. Specifically, Cp times some factor should yield a supply value reduced to X% of max. This is applied to the unmodified value from rule 2 or rule 3, whichever rule is in effect. So in the presence of privateers, a fleet that is R from the nearest supply point would be X% supplied, and one that is 2R from the nearest supply point, with only half the required supply vessels (making it only half supplied based on rule 2) would be (X/2)% supplied.

5) The combat value (Ce) of every friendly escort within escorting range of a fleet restores any supply reduction of that fleet (due to to rule 4) by Ce times some factor. This means that having friendly escorts reduces the value of the X in the X% mentioned in rule 4.

6) In addition, privateers will do damage to or destroy some supply and escort vessels, and escort vessels will do damage to or destroy some privateers.

This looks complicated, but only because I specified it pretty exactly (I'm a programmer, after all).

But the implications are these:

* You can't go rampaging through enemy territory nearly as easily as you could otherwise, say based on range alone.

* You must manage the supply you, uh, supply, to your expeditionary fleets, as well as manage your total supply infrastructure (number of supply ships in service).

* You must (or at least should, if you know what's good for you) manage your escorts and privateers to maintain supply and deny supply to the enemy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, I would prefer a minor tweek from the use of the word privateers to "attacking ships" (inclusive of privateers).

Some additional thoughts from me:

In the absence of a friendly system(colony,outpost, or ally) within the R * 2 supply limit, I would require a fortified supply depot to extend supply lines. The depot would be able to withstand privateer attacks on it's own, but could be overwhelmed by a sustained fleet attack. It would not normally require attention, unless attacked in force. Supply depots could be built in planetless systems, but at high maintenece cost due to lack of resources (if an asteroid field exists, then some resorces could be mined)

As discussed in the brainstorming thread, as a supply line extends, more supply ships are needed to support the extended fleet. A minimum ratio of supply ships to fleet ships must be maintained to keep fleet fully supplied.

However, I wouldn't assign supply ships to a fleet directly, as suggested, I would assign supply ships to the supply route itself. I would then assign the supply route to either a fleet, or a system. By assigning to a system, different fleets could fly in and out to be re-supplied; sort of like a beachhead (a temporary unfortified depot), the supply would remain out of the frontlines of the battle (which could be one or more systems, one jump away). If you are able to hold on to the system long enough, a fortified depot can be built (assuming no colony or outpost available).

If a route is assigned to a specific fleet, the ratio amount of ships servicing the fleet during a turn that's a combat turn, are subject to being attacked. These ships would not be directly controllable, but would linger near the jump point. Their defense is up to the player, (s)he can protect them, or leave them defenseless, at their descretion. I would allow a simple supply fleet orders section on the combat UI. Three options available, Flee if attacked(if they have the ability to jump, this option is normally selected automatically), Suicide Attack (ram) targets of oppurtunity, Self Destruct.

Other than combat turns, supply ships(and any escorts) are not controllable or seen, but are abstracted, automated. Supply maintenece would be controlled through a supply route overlay UI. Routes can be designated, supply ship ratios status monitered, supply route status in regards to being attacked monitered. The overlay UI would allow supply ships to be siphoned from other routes, if needed, or new ships to be built, if needed. The status of the jump nodes in a route will be shown, colour coded. A node that has 0 to 10% losses due to pirates or enemy activity is coloured green, a node that has 11 to 35% losses is coloured yellow. A yellow automatically initiates the supply route to find a safer route around this node. If an alternate route is not available, the node will flash yellow. A node that has 36 to 80% losses is coloured red and generates a GNN sit-rep about pirate\enemy activity. A node that is 81 to 100% is coloured black, and is effectively blockaded. If no alternate routes are availble, then a fleet needs to clear out the system or some kind of blockade runner must be used.

In regards to the discussion on fuel, I like Eleazer's idea of a high cost to jump. I would propose that jump capable ships have both jump drives and starlane drives. The jump drives would not be based on fuel use, but something like battery capacity. The drives might jump three times in a turn, then be depleted until the next turn, when they recharge.Jump drives are required to access a starlane.The amount of jumps per turn would increase with tech advances. The starlane drives are designed to operate in the "subspace" , for lack of a better term, of a starlane. Starlane drives use fuel, and requires resupply. Speed and fuel economy are improvable with tech advances. In case a starlane is longer than a ship's fuel supply, then a ship uses a "hydrogen ram scoop" (insert alternate techno-babble if you wish) to limp through to the end of the jump.